Hello, I joined recently and am looking for some guidance.
I got what I thought was a great deal on a Cadtrac and the trailer it was on. There is a problem. After a short while the machine slows down until it won't move at all. the bucket remains operable. The 4 wheel drive doesn't work either. It does not have the newer set up that uses a foot operated valve for travel control. Every thing is controlled by joystick.
The tank temperature get up to about 165 degrees and the temp at the pump is 220 degrees. I wrote to cadplans and this is what he told me: "Usually the only thing that gets the oil that hot is an improperly plumbed power beyond valve.
If there is a power beyond (normally on the loader control valve) that port MUST be plumbed to return to the tank.

The improper thing to do is PLUG the power beyond port.

The other, less frequent mistake is to run the supply from the pump into the outlet of the valve.
then, the inlet of the valve is used as the return.

Good luck. " I am attaching an image of the control valve. what or where is the "power beyond valve and where does the supply line attach? thank you all so very much.

First up is ----- does your valve even have the power beyond feature? -- not all valves do and that is the first thing to find out. Also if your system pressure is set high you will have heat problems. Most of the systems I have here range from 1500 to 2500 psi and they work fine. Some newer systems can go to 3000 or so, but must have cooling capacity to handle the heat. does your machine have a large hyd. tank or small one? --- bigger is always better in hyd. tank sizes.

would you track all of the hoses in your pic and label them for us?--- that would be of great help!

I will try to get them labeled this evening. Thanks .

It should only have a power beyond valve on it if the outlet flow that would normally return to the tank, it instead going to another downstream valve circuit. A power beyond valve vs a normal valve can be as simple as removing a fitting and screwing in a different one. You may not be able to tell from just looking.

What you really need is a pressure gague going into the valve between the pump and the valve. A restriction in the line is what will heat up fluid, this restriction could be the fluid going through it's normal processes at too high a pressure, or it could be a system that is plumbed to with a closed return. In that case the pressure would build until the relief pressure was hit and then the relief valve would let the fluid go back to the tank. In that case the pressure between the pump and the valve would alwaye be high even when nothing is being used. The hydraulic presure when nothing is moving shoudl be under 400 psi, or even lower. You can get all the fittings and a gauge from surplus center to check your pressures.

My machine is different, and I have a 2 section valve, I have a gauge on the line going to the lift valve, and one on the wheel circuit. That way when either loads up I can see what is causing the restriction. My pressure reliefs are set differently also.

Does this machine use a flow divider to split the flow? Its been a long time since I studied the Cad Trac designs.

I am also going to move this over to the CadTrac section.

Go to this site and print the jic identification sheet off

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Thread-Identification/JIC/

You have either jic 6 or 8 most likely going into the valve. Whichever it is go back on their site and get a tee with fittings to hook to a 3000 psi gauge. Hook that up and see what your pressures are doing at idle,driving, loading etc. this will help us know where to look for the issue

Thanks for the tip...its printed...but now I think it needs a new battery. Deader n a doornail today. Also, it does use a flow divider. Half goes to the loader valve and half goes to the travel valve. the out from the loader valve tees into the in for the travel valve. The out (return) from the travel valve goes to the filter and from the filter back to the reservoir. I read somewhere that bot the feed to the pump and the return should enter through the bottom of the tank to reduce or eliminate the chance of bubbles. Both on my machine enter the tank through the top. What is your opinion on that? it is an older unit and has a tubular tank that I read some where holds about 7 gallons.

The oil return should come back in the tank under the fluid level so it doesn't mix with air. You would have milky looking oil or foam if that was happening. That would also be bad for the pump.

what hydraulic oil are you running in the machine? I run ISO46 in my hyd drive machine with no issues with foaming..all return ports and motor case drain come into the tank near the oil line but have a 'plenum' or baffle that prevent it from getting drawn into the pump without circulating first..simply a section of 3x3 box tubing with one long side cut out, it forms a "C" welded inside against the wall of the tank where the return ports are..deflects the oil away from the suction port area..is this Cadtrak built to the engineering drawings or has it been built differently or modified?

Feeling sheepish.. I finally opened the hydraulic tank. There were plenty of bubbles. Then I noticed that the bubbles looked pretty far away. so I added and added fluid. Bought a new jug and added some more! I am pretty sure that it was closing in on 2 gallons. I haven't taken the temps yet, but 4 wheel drive has returned. I still need to change the filter for the hydraulics yet.....any suggestions there would be helpful.....I can't make out the numbers on the current filter. Speaking of the fluid, would running synthetic be of any benefit here?? Also, I was moving some wet dirt and mud would collect on the tires only to be scraped off by the frame where the platform that my feet rest on. What a mess. It also gets scraped off where the cooling air has to get into the engine. While I could make some sort of scrapers, I think that 2 inch wheel spacers would or likely would take care of it. Will the hubs survive the stress of adding the wheel spacers? Thanks for the advice!

Running low on fluid isn't good hopefully you didn't damage anything. I would change the oil in the engine and the hydraulic fluid.

Take the filter off and go to napa, they should be able to find something. No way to know what your machine has on it. I would guess that no two are exactly alike.

Wheel spacers: as light as it is I don't thing it will hurt it. Spacers do increase the load on the wheel motor bearings.

Thanks for the info.

running low on fluid possibly you had air entrapped in the drive circuits causing inop hyd motors..if they are plumbed in series like I remember the CadTrak was they would do that until it purged the air. how did the machine lose the oil fluid? is there a leak or broken fitting somewhere? even a slow drip will leak out gallons over a month period of time.

Looking at your picture of the valve it sure doesnt look to be a power beyond valve,they usually have a bigger monoblock casting with two or more BIG ports that get one or other pipe plugs installed- one gives you standard 4-way operation, you remove that plug and reinstall the power beyond plug and it redirects return flow to this power beyond port,which is seperate from the return port on that valve. It sure looks from your valve photo as tho you have a standard valve and someone has plumbed the return port with a flow restrictor or wye fitting from what I can see which may be backing up the pump's flow and causing the heating issues you have..I run a power beyond valve for my steer circuits and the loader functions are power beyond downstream from that..when you move the steer valve, the loader stops until you stop steering then the loader functions return,except for down on the loader,that just dumps pressure into the return.They hold position until you stop the steer function. Maybe someone who built the machine went cheap and used a standard valve they had instead of the proper power beyond valve.Just a guess.

I appreciate the helpful trouble shooting. I was out playing in the dirt with it tonight and it was doing okay and I didn't notice it at the time, but the temp at the pump went to 200+ again. Right now I want to get the fittings and the gauges to check the pressure in the system. This machine does not have a valve on the floor board. Right hand controls all the bucket movement, left hand steers and controls forward and backwards. there isn't a return line directly from the right hand valve (bucket controls) Where the fluid exits that valve it goes over and 't's into the supply line for the directional controlling valve. Then the fluid is routed out the one "out" hose on the travel (left) side and that igoes into a 't' fitting with the used fluid from the wheel motors and then into the filter and then to the tank.

I think this is built pretty much to the plans except there is no valve mounted to the floor board.

That is a very complicated way of running simple circuits in my book. I would study up on a different way to get the returns back into 1 collector box. "T" fittings are not good and to have that many----well not good. T causes deadheading. "Y" fittings pointed in direction of flow would be much better. something is either back feeding pressure where it cant be or some other restriction down the line is causing pressure where its not s'posed to be.

Kevin here's a pic of my power beyond valve,the big plug on the left-(top side here)-side of the valve body is the power beyond port,it comes factory with a plug in it,you remove the plug and thread in the power beyond plug which redirects internally the flow of fluid to the port..its a pretty big plug,should be pretty obvious on your valve if it has a PB port for one.All the power beyond valves I've seen have one of these plug setups.You can see the PB plug right behind the fitting labeled 'power beyond'..normally it's blocked off with a big closed plug.When the valve ships from the manufacturer it has the plug in it and will function as-is like a standard 4-way valve,if you need power beyond then you insert the PB plug and plumb to downstream valves as necessary.

Sorry for the sideways photos Im having issues with my photo editor and my eyesight is not getting any better

I got the fittings and gauges that GatorS recommended. I had the beast running one day last week and the pump got hot very quickly. I contacted Honor for a rebuild kit and found out that the pump was probably old when it was installed and rebuild kits are no longer available. So I ordered a new pump and it got here today after dark so nothing else happened except for changing the filters for the engine oil and the hydraulic oil. I did change the engine oil. Tomorrow I hope to change the hydraulic fluid and the pump. If it does not function properly, I will put the gauges to work and see what is what. With the coming snow I dare to hope that all will be working properly! Thank You for your help bunkclimber.

I got the fittings and gauges that GatorS recommended. I had the beast running one day last week and the pump got hot very quickly. I contacted Honor for a rebuild kit and found out that the pump was probably old when it was installed and rebuild kits are no longer available. So I ordered a new pump and it got here today after dark so nothing else happened except for changing the filters for the engine oil and the hydraulic oil. I did change the engine oil. Tomorrow I hope to change the hydraulic fluid and the pump. If it does not function properly, I will put the gauges to work and see what is what. With the coming snow I dare to hope that all will be working properly! Thank You for your help sonny.

if the oil(fluid)is getting hot that quickly without working it you definitely have a restriction problem.You may want to even just go ahead and replace the valve,it might be a unidentifiable old closed center valve or something that doesn't belong on the machine..A closed center valve backs the pressure up against the relief in the valve body until the (handle)spool moves then the system works against the load. Very common on farm tractors and such,it responds quicker than a open center system..Each system has different valve designs.An open center valve continuously moves oil thru the system,until the valve spool moves then the oil goes to the work and backs up against the work or load until the system hits the relief valve pressure..sounds like you might have the wrong valve installed..just a thought. SurplusCenter (IMHO) has the best deals and selection on valves. I just got a spare pump for my mini articulated loader there,two section pump for about $75..hard to find pump too..I shoulda ordered a spare when I first built it. Thier website has a lot of useful tech info on hydraulics there as well. Best of luck. Merry Christmas,yes Im not afraid to say it.

Is there any books like "
hydraulics for dummies"?

What pressure did you get on the gauge going into the first valve with no levers pulled. Should be less that 500, hopefully less than 100. If you get like 2000 or so then you are dead heading the pump and flow is going through the pressure relief back to the tank. This is what Bunk is describing above. Show us a pic of your gauge setup so we can make sure you have it plumbed right.

Need to check these pressures before you start replacing things. Don't want to troubleshoot by replacement.

"Hydraulics for dummies" ? the fact you are asking a question rules out that you are a dummy. Just check out the tech info section at Surplus Center, it spells out many answers to common hydraulic questions you may have.

kinda spells trouble to me with open center system-you can have possible pressure doubling when you open a pressure loaded hydraulic circuit into another in series..each valve should have a separate return/out path back to the tank..Sounds like a flow divider might be missing ahead of the valves and was replumbed in series just to make it work,on top of using the wrong valve too..you never know with used equipment. I would check into how it's SUPPOSED to be plumbed..maybe modifications were made early on,or someone didnt build this to print properly to begin with. The Tee at the return side of the valve is causing a huge bottleneck with flow and may be the culprit. if you have to add returns,add them right at the tank..My loader isnt a cadtrac but I have all (3) 3/4"valve returns ported thru two tank ports at my hydraulic tank,works fine,minimal flow resistance right at the tank

Pulled the pump and found the leak....pump was leaking at the shaft. Hopefully I'll get it all back together before dark.

Got the new pump installed. Everything wants to work but as for traveling it wants to stall the engine if i try to turn the unit and forward or backwards is very jumpy. Tomorrow I hope to get some pressure testing done. My gut feeling is that the amount of pressure the valves are dealing with is off/too much. Back to the power beyond valve. Does it act kind of like a regulator, making sure that there is enough pressure to power the functions of the valve and the excess volume/pressure is then diverted to another auxiliary circuit as opposed to just being returned to the tank by the "out" line? Instead of the B&S 18 horsepower engine the plans call for, it has a 20 horsepower Kohler. The travel control valve is part of the steering valve instead of on the floorboard. The joy sticks are identical FPS valves. Right now I'm pretty pissed with it.

How has your Saturday gone? Any packages show up?

1. valves dont use pressure to control work,they just direct flow..the flow pressure backs up and increases thru the valve due to load being moved, ie:-cylinder extending to lift a load or a motor moving trying to rotate,propel or move something.Your pressures at rest (not moving) should be minimal,if you are seeing pressures and the motor lugging down at rest then you definitely have a problem in valving or plumbing. The only thing a valve uses pressure for is to actuate the relief valve (in it if equipped)-to open it for a high-pressure relief bypass back to the tank. Flow should be straight thru from the pump or flow divider thru the valve back to the tank unless a spool is moved(handle pulled) if you have pressure with all handles in neutral then you have excess flow restriction or a plumbing error. Fitting sizes can effect flow as well,too small a fitting or elbow can also restrict flow. Small flow into a big fitting is OK but not the other way around..this backs up flow making pressure and heat which is what you are seeing.

#2 in a circuit with a power beyond valve,the PB valve should be the first valve in the circuit, a secondary flow will use the power beyond port off that PB valve to feed the second valves' flow input. When you actuate the power beyond valve, the second circuit has it's flow interuppted and the first circuit (w/power beyond valve) gets the flow. When you let off the first in line power beyond valve and it pops back to neutral position, the flow to the second valve resumes. My power beyond valve runs my articulated steer function,the power beyond flow goes to my loader valve. When I steer, my loader functions pause (except bucket down) until my steer valve is neutralled again. The power beyond valve does not regulate flow, it just steers it from one valve downstream from it or not..the priority flow is the one plumbed to the P.B.valve itself. Either a valve is power beyond or not..there is nothing you can add to a non-power beyond valve unless it has the capability from the factory with a PB plug port built in like the one in my photo.The photo of your yellow valve looks like a standard two-spool valve with a relief valve(silver long hex barrel above the inlet port) on the input side..what is going on with the tee and smaller hose on the input port is beyond me.

#3 the 20hp Kohler isnt any different than the 18hp Briggs when it comes to turning a pump, as long as the rotation is correct..most small gas engines turn the same,CCW which means you need a CW pump if direct coupled. I think you have some valve adaptations that werent carried out correctly..you need to troubleshoot the hydraulic schematic front to back to see if there are changes to it.again my guess from here is you have some valving mods that were plumbed or valves routed incorrectly.
#4 some parts are starting to trickle in,only via FedEx or UPS..USPS is all mucked up right now,total BS,they have bad apples in the District Heights Wash.DC sorting center..and some vendors dont ask your preferred shipment method..USPS was stellar in delivering small parcels in the past but since the changes everything is screwed up. I'm almost 30days stuck in USPS on some parts..the ridiculousness continues.Even with Informed Delivery and starting a inquest w/USPS the issues persist..They blame it on Covid and package volume..not the case at all.

I questioned the mess of tees in your lines right off the bat! --- something in your hose routing is off back feeding something. PLEASE do testing before you kill your new pump! ---- wont take much to kill it too if problem not solved quickly!
Testing will take time and be messy BUT should point you to the problem child in a short order.
The tall silver nut would be just the relief valve as Bunk says--- I agree---your valve looks like a standard one.
If unit wasnt plumbed to plans, and the builder just started hooking hoses to whatever----- well, easy to hook to wrong places,----even accidently this can happen, so you need to trace each hose starting at pump out port and work downstream from there, AND while you are at it git rid of them damn tees in the return lines!!!! --- EACH return line should have its own fitting/hose in the tank---5 returns need 5 seprate lines/fittings in the tank. I had an Oliver combine that had 8 return lines back to the tank on it because it ran most of the machine by hyd.---- this is just an example of the factory setups that I have run into---- had to be a reason for the way they did it cause the combine never got hot at all, so it worked!
Keep us posted on your progress and what you decide on! --- We understand the bad feelings toward the machine, but its the original builders screw-ups falt, not the machine! --- You CAN straighten it out!!

Sonny,
Thanks for the kind words and advice. I have been studying the book/plans. The main return puts all returning fluid through the filter and then into the tank. On the Oliver combine, did each return have it's own filter? Or was the filter in the supply line to the pump? Did FPS go under...I was looking for images on the web and got very few for FPS?Eastwood has a hydraulic flaring tool that can make just about any kind of flare, so that has me tempted to replace as many flexible lines as possible while I'm sorting this all out. But there are other tools that tempt me more!

Good evening Bunkclimber,
Looking at the picture of your valve...It is a single spool, correct? If the power beyond line is not currently connected to the valve to control the additional spool valve It must just go to the return to the tank? How or why do the new plans show an additional flow divider? It is confusing. So far the plans haven't helped. I asked Sonny already, but did FPS go out of business. Very little info available on line about them.

If a spool is in the neutral position, fluid just flows right through to the power beyond or the return line? there's no pressure in the valve until the valve is used to activate a circuit? Tomorrow will be a better day to work, hopefully.

Now...the USPS...When I carried in Arlington, VA mail volume was huge..probably at the apex. People would complain about delays in their mail service to Congressman Frank Wolfe . Then he go do an "unannounced" tour of Merrifield...the processing plant for Northern VA. He'd never find any delayed mail and he'd go back to D.C. Then we would get hammered with volume. My worst day was when I took 36 feet of mail out for delivery. That's nearly 6 times my height and well over my weight! Plus parcels. Speaking of which, back then Fingerhut was the main player in shop by mail. We had Fingerhut days. We had parcels out the wazoo on those days. Today, every day seems like a Fingerhut day to the carriers. Today, some outfits put gps trackers in their packages. That should be an additional service offered to regular customers.

There is internal tracking for the USPS only and it is way more detailed than what you can see online. There are events that happen before we get your package from Surplus Center.
The label being created is the first event.
Next we see when the item leaves Surplus Center.
Then there is an arrival scan.
Then it is scanned as it goes into a container
That container is scanned before it is loaded onto a truck
There's a scan when the truck leaves the facility.
For dock transfers to another truck there is a scan
there's a scan when the package reaches the plant that serves your area
There is a scan when the package gets to your post office
there's a scan when the carrier leaves the office and then there is a scan at your house.

So, your local postmaster has detailed info available to them about your package. How good they are at utilizing the system is another story. All those scans only happen if everyone is able to scan when they are supposed to.

Till tomorrow

I run all my returns to a header, the difference being that my return header is made from 1-1/2" steel pipe with big Tees for each flow to come back together. Then it all goes through a filter on the return before the tank. Now my machine is totally different than your as far as flows so those sizes aren't comparable. You could probably return all your flow through a 1" pipe.

Read what Bunk said 2 or 3 times. I am going to restate what he said. The pump only moves fluid. In a open hydraulic system, the pump only builds the pressure that it needs to to perform a particular function. If all the valves are in neutral (not pulled) and working correctly, the flow is simply going through the pump to a valve, then to another valve (power beyond) then back to the tank through the filter. In neutral this pressure should be low.

As said before it you try to pump 20 gpm through a 1/4" hose or fitting you will develop (just a guess example) 700 psi. The Horse power required for the pump to make 700 psi is based on the flow rate of the pump and the amount of flow, which is controlled by the displacement of the pump. If you exceed the HP of the engine it will bog down. If you take that same 1/4" restriction and remove it and install a 3/4 hose the pressure may go to 100 psi (again just a guess example). This lowers the engine HP required and keeps fluids cool.

This is why we have asked you for the neutral valve positions to see if you have a restriction. You need to do that test, and you need to post a pic of how you plump the pressure gauge because I want to make sure you have it in the right location.

So in the example above lets say you are getting 900 psi on your inlet line to the first valve with it in neutral, and when you deadhead the lift all the way to the top the pressure goes up to 2500. That would mean that your lowest pressure you will ever see is 900 which is too much, it would also mean that your pressure relief on that valve is set to 2500. When you dead head the cylinder, the pump is still pumping but the fluid can't go to the tank because its directed to the cylinder. The pressure will quickly build. If you didn't have a relief valve it would quickly break something or stall the pump/engine. Since that doesn't happen (usually), what is happening is that when the pressure reaches a certain point the relief valve opens and lets the fluid go back to the tank. This will keep happening till the valve is released.

Now you have a flow divider. That means that you have one flow from the pump that is being split by the divider. Basically the divider puts a certain amount of fluid to each circuit. That fluid then flows as described above.

Your problem could be on either side of your flow divider, the only way to know is to see what is generating the pressure when it shouldn't be. Pressure = heat buildup

You need to check the following and write down the results, and let us know what you get.

1. Put Tee with pressure gauge into line from pump to flow divider.

Neutral pressure
wheel valve forward pressure
wheel valve reverse pressure

steering valve pressure in each direction dead headed

lift valve dead head pressure any direction

2. Put Tee with pressure gauge between the flow divider and the wheel valve

Neutral pressure
wheel valve forward pressure
wheel valve reverse pressure

steering valve pressure in each direction dead headed

lift valve dead head pressure any direction

3. Put Tee with pressure gauge between the flow divider and the steering valve
Neutral pressure
wheel valve forward pressure
wheel valve reverse pressure

steering valve pressure in each direction dead headed

lift valve dead head pressure any direction

4. Put Tee with pressure gauge between the steering valve and the lift valve
Neutral pressure
wheel valve forward pressure
wheel valve reverse pressure

steering valve pressure in each direction dead headed

lift valve dead head pressure any direction

5. Put Tee with pressure gauge after the wheel valve outlet before it Tees into anything else

Measure the neutral pressure
Measure the pressure when operating the valve on the lift at dead head

6. Put Tee with pressure gauge after the last valve on the steering/lift side but before the common return

Measure the neutral pressure
Measure the pressure when operating the valve on the lift at dead head,
Measure the pressure when operating the wheel valve

Now all this may not be possible based on your connections or practical, but if you get all this info I think we will be able to point to your problem immediately.


Also post some pics of your whole machine with all the lines visible. Hard to help with just a pic of the valve.

Look at the thread of my build PDF 8, page 1, zoom in on the first pic you cam see my return stack and filter.

Look at PDF 9, page 6 and 7. To see my loader valve. I added my steering valve after the loader valve, was originally using the first spool as steering. Since I had the loader valve first, it is the power beyond. I am trying to find that pic on photobucket so I can mark what each line does for you, but they want me to pay so I have to download all my pics and put them somewhere else.. The tank returns are joined, with the same size pipe that is incoming.

http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=310#Post310

Kevin,
The power beyond valve is a stock 4-way hydraulic valve when shipped to you it has a SOLID plug threaded in the power beyond port with machined steps on the inside of the plug that redirect flow inside the valve..when you unscrew that plug out and replace it with a power beyond plug,which is ported with either 1/2" or 3/4" threads THEN it gives you a second circuit..there are steps machined into the plugs that set up the flow inside the valve when you thread the plug into it. You have to replace the P.B. plug in the valve if you are not using that flow for anything..plugging it off without the original block-off plug will cause issues inside the valve I do believe with the relief valve routing INSIDE the valve.

If the P.B.valve is in neutral position, yes the flow goes right thru the P.B.valve out the PB port onto the next valve in line..thats how my loader works,it uses the pump flow thru the P.B.valve's PB port to feed the 3-section loader valve..if the P.B.valve handle is pulled the flow goes to the P.B.valve steering function(priority)and flow stops to the downstream loader valve.The downstream valve can always pass fluid out of a valve section back to the tank regardless,this is just dumping pressure back to the return line(like the loader mast returning to the ground)-pressure flow not necessary for that.Try to raise the bucket you will have nothing until the steering circuit P.B.valve is neutralled then flow resumes to the P.B.port to do work with the downstream loader valve.

Minimal pressure in any and all circuits on my machine with valves neutralled (loader and steer are one pump section, propulsion drive is another pump section-its a 2-section pump) I hope I clarified that my machine is a total one-off custom design articulated,not a Cadtrac design,altho the hydraulics are similar in operation.I have no flow dividers,just two pump circuits which is a bit more efficient than using a flow divider to split flows from one pump.I have three returns,one for the PB steering valve,one for the downstream loader valve,and one return for the propel valve.All returns are direct run back to the tank,but two are manifolded like Gator mentioned..but right at the tank with 3/4" full-flow tees.

I'm highly suspect that you have an improper valve or connection which is causing your heating issues,the picture of your valve-on the valve port the tee'd off line looks as tho one hose line is reduced in size..you shouldnt be building heat in the system until about an hour or more of operation..even then it shouldnt be reaching 200degF that quickly. I can run my machine for two hours straight moving pallets around and it only just starts to get warm..No oil coolers and Im running a ISO46 weight hyd oil, similar to 30W but has additives.I dont think the fluid(oil) is your issue. Anyway,you should not have a valve feeding another valve from a valve return port..spend some time checking your hose routing,maybe draw it up on paper with what you have and see.

Gator,---Bunk! ,---you guys are much better at xplainin this stuff than I am! --- Thanks!
I think if Kevin can get some pix. of his entire machine and the hose/valve setup it would really help. How bout the pix first of the hose/pump/valve routing? --- might be something right off the go that is visible like hose in wrong place.
Gator--- Photobucket wont even let me in to get pix. now---locked out completely unless I pay that $400 a year for use----THAT aint hapinin! lol! --- Jim uses Flickr--I have a few on there but prefer to just re-size my pix in paint to 640 x 480 and post direct from my computer. --- Dont have a clue what you would do from phone to resize them since we dont use phone for anything cept calls.
Kevin,--- I dont remember where the filter was on the Oliver, ---- been too many years crs setting in lol!
I had found a few places on the internet that show hyd. diagram setups, dont know if any of them are helpful in this case or not.

MOST of our packages come Fed-Ex. here --used to be UPS --- might just be where we order from happens to use Fed-Ex. The postal packages we do get do seam to get here in reasonable time----still WAY slower than Fed or Ups, but do get here! lol!

Hydraulic Systems Basics - Toro

Try this in your search box---- it has a lot of simple diagrams to look at.

Gator, Bunk and Sonny,
I began pressure tests this afternoon. I did print out the testing procedures that I was supposed to follow, but it went missing on me. So I kind of winged it. Right outside the divider 700psi to the bucket valve. 400-500 to the travel valve. On the right side, out, after the bucket valve still 700 psi. Now I need to warm up. Question. Should the hoses from the "T"s all be the same length. Gut tells me that they should all be the same length, but what do I know?
Any thoughts on the lopsided pressure after the 50/50 rotary flow divider.? I know I need more places checked. If the out on the right is feeding at 700 psi into the in on the left that's only getting 400 psi from the rotary divider. what kind problems should that create?? I don't know if I can get the testing done properly tomorrow. We are supposed to get 5+ inches of snow tonight. I agree that something has to be plumbed wrong or a hose has deteriorated and caused an internal blockage some where.

Most of the fittings on the machine so far are the JIC 8 size. From the valves to the cylinders or motors look to be the smaller JIC 6..

Is that with any valves active? Open center, you shouldn't see much of any pressure until you put a load on it.

unless you have a filter installed somewhere inline and it's clogged-(even so there's usually a pop-off bypass built-into the filter)-you still shouldnt be seeing anywhere near 700psi..there's where your heat is coming from..you have a restricted fitting somewhere or something mis-plumbed backing the system up to see those pressures no load..my guess is a hose misrouted and mis-connected.

No active valves...all in center/neutral position.

Brand new filter...Hastings I think. .

As for power beyond...there are flat spots on the valves where they could have been machined for power beyond functions. There are no power beyond functions to either valve.

I cannot find your filter set up.

What is the displacement of the pump that you put on? Also most little gas engines run about 3600 rpm. Trying to guess your flow rates vs the hose sizes.

From your statement above, of 700 and 400 psi, pressure is only generated to a point that is needed to move the flow through the system. The side that is using 700 psi unloaded has a restriction that needs 700 psi to move your volume of fluid through the restriction. Same thin on the 400 psi side. When they come back to together to go through the filter, the pressure will drop. After the filter it goes into a tank with 0 back pressure. If you measure the pressure after your last valve but before the filter, you will be reading what it takes to push the fluid through the filter to the tank.

Think about this for the heat. It takes a certain amount of energy to get the fluid up to 400 or 700 psi. That energy is from the engine from the pump to the fluid. When that pressure is dropped the fluid still has that energy, since it is no longer being stored as pressure and velocity, it turns into heat. Basically all the energy of the pump is going into heating the fluid. When we solve the pressure issue your problem will go away.

Again we need pics of your rig to help troubleshoot. Send me a PM on here if you need help posting pics and I will send you my phone number to help you post them.

it is an Honor pump, 2GG9U22R Pump, Gear, 1.31 C.I./ 2-Bolt 'A' mount, #16 SAE In / #12 SAE Out, 3/4 x3/16 Keyed Shaft x 2" Long, CW Rotation. This is what was suggested by the customer service rep at Honor Pumps down in Corpus Christie, TX http://www.honorpumps.com/ I bought from them because the original was an Honor. The rep said that it should give me a little more than than 18 gpm. I don't have an indoor place to work on the loader. We had snow last night and everything was slop this morning, so no work done today. tomorrow looks like good weather.

Some good reference information:

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Tech-Help-Home/

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Calculators/Pump-Disp-HP-GPM-RPM/

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Hose-Sizing/

If you are running a lawn mower style gas engine, it is probally running at 3,600 rpm. 1.31 in^3/rev *3600 = 20.42 gpm. If most your hoses are JIC 8, they are probally 1/2" hoses. Using the recommended flow valocities on suprlus center in the links above,

Q (flow in gpm) = 2.45 * D^2 * V V=velocity, D= diameter, Q = flow in gpm. recomended flow is 11-18 in pressure lines, 2-4 in suction, and 4-13 in return lines (from surplus center site above)

I don't know what size lines you have but say your hoses are .5"

V=Q/(2.45*D^2) so V=20.42/(2.45*.5^2) = 33.3 ft/second. The 2.45 accounts for all the unit conversions. That is double the recommended velocity, if you mix in a 3/8 fitting somewhere in the line and you have 59 ft/s. If you go to 5/8 V drops to 21, 3/4 hose and you get 14, 1" hose, 8.3 ft/sec., 1.5" hose = 3.7 ft/second.

This means that you need a 1.5" hose from your tank to your pump, 3/4" lines from the pump to your flow divider (and a divider rated at over 20 gpm), 1/2 in lines to your valves (flow is split in two), then 1" or larger where everything comes back together to go through the filter and tank. And of course the filter needs to be sized for at least 20-30 gpm.

I would start with lookin at all your hose sizes, and thinking about the velocities (that in turn generate back pressures of 400 and 700 psi) before changing any more expensive parts. If all that is fine then something is piped wrong. They could also have a valve on there that is rated for 5 gpm and your feeding it 10, it would still work, but not without causing heating issues.

Before you start replacing hoses, you need to complete the pressure measurements so that you can confirm your issues

Again.............please post pics of your machine and hose routing or we are just guessing and not really helping.

Can't find the good camera and the camera in my old flip cell just doesn't cut it. I've been thinking about the motors. Are the drive motors supposed to all be the same? If they are identical once they are flipped side to side and shouldn't the hoses be reversed, making kind of an x from the central t ? Just another point I ponder. And shouldn't the hoses be t'd into the line for forward and then t'd into the line for reverse? Let me see if I can find the camera.

I don't know what motors were used on your machine but I believe they are all supposed to be the same. Since the motors should be reversible the hoses would need to be routed so they go the right direction when the fluid goes in whichever port. If that was wrong you would know that quickly.

If I remember reading about these years ago, The motors are piped in parallel between all four. I think I remember some discussion about the fittings being under sized some so that if one wheel lost traction and started spinning out, the small fitting would create back pressure due to the increased flow through that spinning motor, that back pressure would then be applied to the other wheels that had grip and hopefully keep the machine moving.

What does "deadhead the valve" mean?

Open center hydraulic: Pump creates flow, which always goes through valve and back to tank. When a valve opens this flow is redirected into that function, if there is resistance to that flow then a load is on the system (such as a cylinder lifting or reaching end of travel) pressure builds and the "relief" which is a ball on a stiff spring releases and diverts to the tank. So the relief keeps the system from building more pressure than the pump (or hoses, or cylinders, or valves, but especially the pump) can withstand. So to "deadhead" the system is to do something to make the pressure build until the relief valve open, usually run a cylinder against its end stop. Can be deliberate (as a test) or not.

Closed center: Pump creates pressure, and when pressure drops changes to create volume. This system closes all the valves off to retain pressure when flow is not needed.

Some of the fun comes when a hobby builder scrounges a closed center valve and uses it in an open center system, then it is building pressure all the time when it does not need to.

When running two sets of valves on an open center system, there are a few ways to do this.

One of the best ways is to run a separate pump for each valve set. This can be mounted separately or all part of one unit called a multi section pump, but each section is still basically a separate pump.

Another way is to use something called a rotary flow divider. This is basically a multi section pump that is driven by the hydraulic pressure, and geared together. Usually 1:1 for each section (I have not seen more than two but that doesn't mean they aren't out there). What this does it makes sure equal flow goes to both outputs without losing pressure.

Yet another way is a pressure priority valve. This acts like a flow divider crossed with a relief valve. It uses a series of spring valves to resist the pressure and basically lets one function steal all the pressure before the others get to use it.

If you just tee the output output to two open section valves, whichever one that is not being used steals all the flow and the one you are using never builds pressure and causes the motors or cylinders to move. So you could "cheat" the system and put an extra pressure relief in line with both valves, and plug the far end to basically turn it into a poor man's closed center system. These relief valves would be running all the time, putting extra load on the motor and heating up your fluid.

This sort of sounds like what your system is doing, based on what you have described.

A "power beyond" valve set up gets around all of this by running the valves in series. It is a special setup to let the next valve in line build pressure through the first one while it isn't working itself. This also means that any time the first one tries to do something it steals all the flow from the 2nd. But it is a very simple and economical way to build a system with multiple valve sets.

I want to say that the "standard" cadtrac plans call for the use of a rotary divider. The price of adding a rotary divider vs. using a multi section pump is very close, and the multi section pumps seem to be easier to find.

It sort of sounds to me like whoever built your system tried to cut some corners on the build, then didn't like the results and sold the unit.

Did you get the plans along with the unit? I don't know if he sells just the hydraulic plans separately or will offer to help diagnose a machine someone else has built and then kept the plans for, but how much have you spent on pumps so far? It might be worth buying the plans and going through the system.

https://cadplans.com/products/cadtrac-1500

If you aren't a teacher, you ought to be one! The original plans are long gone. I am the third owner. The second owner would have included them if he had them. At least I think he would have. He included 2 brand new carburetors with it, so that leads me to think that he would have included the plans if he had them. When I called Honor Pumps, USA to get a rebuild kit for the pump, they told me that the pump I had was out of production for over 10 years. Then he did the calculations for what size pump that he thought I would need and where I needed to get it from. So now I have $200 for the plans and $300 for the pump, and $100 for the gauges and fittings for the tests. I need to start a spread sheet to keep track of all this.

Right now I get a reading of 700psi in the hose going from the divider to valve used to control the bucket. The out from that valve is t'd into the in hose that goes to the travel control valve, where I still get 700psi. In the out for this valve it reads zero pressure. I do not have indoor space, or even covered space to work on this and this morning we have 39 degrees and rain. I used to be a mailman, and that is a miserable combination. If it stops, then I'll go do the tests that GatorS laid out for me.

Can you bypass that second valve with a hose and see what the pressure goes to?

Bypassing the second valve: are you talkin about taking the output hose of the first valve and and just running it back to before the filter (where there is currently no pressure nor any need for it? I would then just cap off where that line went into the second valve.

I just got an email from Cadplans. My unit is not plumbed at all like it should be. I am missing the second flow divider and the foot operated fwd/rev valve. Maybe this thing has never run properly! I need a dry day to finish testing.

That was as I suspected, because what you had been describing up to now does not sound like what others who have built them have reported.

Good luck on getting it rearranged, and if not exactly as he designed, then at least closer to it in function.

Kinda was afraid it was not routed right! and the right parts never installed on it. ---- sounds like you are on track to getting it functional ----- dont have to be exactly like the plans,---just needs to work for you!

Yes run a hose from the outlet of the first valve to the tank/filter. Leave the gauge before the first valve. See if this changes the back pressure at neutral.

Before you go buying a bunch of stuff to match the plans I'd try to see if we can make it work as is. Might still need to buy some stuff but we need to verify what you have now before spending a ton of money that. Might not be needed.

That is the plan then. The other divider is over $200 bucks! So just to bring the machine into spec, would be another $400 to $500 bucks.

I have only 1 picture of it and I can't post it here. I will go see if I can post it on our facebook page. If you go to the Cadtrac site, mine is the same color of yellow. Mine has rops and the rear is boxed with a small keg as the fuel tank sitting on top of the box.

Brought your pic over from FB.

Thanks!

Kevin if you don't have shop space or indoors place to work,the fabric tents with metal poles(or car ports as they call them) are an economical alternative to a building in a pinch..that and a shotgun heater in wintertime

I have aa torpedo and a heater buddy that both work off or propane around her some where. When the Power went out Thursday evening and didn't come back on (two power poles were sheared off) I about drug the gas grill in off the porch to make heat with! I've been thinking about one of the aluminum carports that are bolted down to concrete anchors. The wind here is constant and one of those canvas tents would be caught up in the windmills over on the ridge in about 2 minutes!!

KEVIN!!!!!---- That is a nice lookin loader!! Very handy size to have! --- Hey,--- wots that white stuff laying all over in your pic???? LOL!! We have the wind problem here too---course we live in the center of a 240 unit windfarm! lol!

bet he wishes it was working right to move that white stuff.

Sonny and Jim, You can't see them, but along that ridge in the back ground there are plenty of huge windmills. There's a privacy fence on the Western side of my backyard that has been re-installed twice because of the wind. I need to get it up and running because more snow is on the way and come Spring I have some dirt I need to get moved. The joystick controls are what I need because I can't steer my old 1953 Cub any more. I have been putting a lot of thought into this machine.....if the engine was replaced with the motor from a golf cart and the bucket removed....this would make a great rough county wheel chair kind of rig.....for a handicapped person to go into the woods to hunt, or conquer trails with walking friends. It would be great to take to the beach to fish. But first, the hydraulics need fixed and tomorrow it's not supposed to snow and it should get into the 30's wooo hoooo heatwave! it is a great size for a home owner. Can't wait till it runs like it should!

I just thought of some thing. I don't have a Cadtrac but on my Mini Hoe the loader has a power beyond valve with float feature and the backhoe runs off that. just recently I have experienced a couple times where the backhoe would barely move and I could hear the relief on the pump lifting. I think the spool on loader valve sticks just enough that nothing moves BUT the flow through the valve is restricted. I've also noticed that the float feature quit working too. if I wiggle the valve handle the flow is restored.
Think I'm going to get a new valve. that one was surplus and I had to fabricate handles and every thing for it.
JUST thought I would throw that out there. might be a spool sticking some where after it gets all warmed up.

I moved the hose from the out on the bucket valve so that it connects to the main return before the filter. Now I can steer without it stalling. But it Is one jumpy machine. to travel it takes reducing it to low idle speed in order to send power to the wheels with out getting bounced out of the machine and the same goes when lowering the bucket. It wants to drop like a rock only twice as fast! The out from the bucket valve, being moved from the in on the travel to just before the filter, has no kind of back pressure or flow restriction. That I think is what has led to the the bucket coming down so hard. When I go to drive it or turn it the pressure gauge on the left side jumps to 800, the gauge over before the filter did not move, stayed at zero. When driving, the pressure goes up to about 800psi and that's it. If I rev the engine I get more noise, but not more speed. So some where their is an 800psi relief valve. Steering will cause it to go higher, like to 1200psi and higher.

So I went and got the I.R. thermometer. The pump is flaming hot at 180+. The tank is about 80 and the divider is at 90. The travel speed of the machine went up with the new pump, but with the change in flow top speed is down. Interestingly, the Four wheel drive is still working.

So we have some improvements but not enough and still have way too much heat.

So now I'm going to go do the pressure testing in the order you gave me. Hopefully, tomorrow will be a good day to get those done.

Hey guys and gals,
We are supposed to get around 8 inches of snow so I took the loader out to see how well it would work with the new valve from Surplus Center, and it was not fun. First off, the throttle cable broke, but it was running fast enough that it wasn't going to stall, so I drove up the alley. Found out something new about the valve. going up the alley, I could go forward or turn, but not both at the same time. The coup de grâce came when the small bolt that holds the old joystick to the section that raises and lowers the bucket broke. So Tomorrow I will go to Fastenal for some small bolts, I have another cable I can use for the throttle and then compose another letter to Surplus Center to let them know how well the valve that I bought on the advice of their technical support dept.

just keep the snow there! lol! we were spose'd to get 5---as of now bout 2 on the ground---radar shows it to be over for us. looks to be heading North East from here.
Is the stick adjusted right? I would think you could adjust them to give power to both sections in a smooth manner at the same time.
I have never had the luxury of having that kind of controls so I am kinda guessing as to how they would work.

Now we have wind picking up....supposed to be over 40 mph this afternoon & evening There weren't any instructions with the new valve and I've been looking for some. haven't found any yet. I had it running today, but it is too rough riding & steering to do any kind of accurate work. Then, once it wears me out, it feels like I'm trapped in a big bingo tumbler. I get tossed around and into the rops bar. if it didn't have one I'd probably have been tossed off into the snow! and it would probably be the yellow snow at that!

Sounds like the storm we had here the other day has reached you!
I am still trying to picture it running and cant see a reason that it would be that jerky! ---- Try just cracking the valves a bit and see if it still jerks. Regular valves are not motor valves----people use them but I wouldnt. Motor valves dont jerk---they freewheel when released and regular valves lock up making the motor grabby.

Not sure if there is a special valve that you could install between regular valves and motors or not that would soften the blow.---probably not but just a thought.

The original builder skimped on the hydraulics. With the different dividers and splitters and a missing valve....One hose should go from the pump to the geared splitter and then the line/volume going to the loader valve should be split. Then 25% of the flow should got to the loader valve and 25% would go to the auxiliary port . The second line coming from the geared divider should be split so that 25% goes to steering and 25% goes to the travel valve for forward and reverse. I think the one splitter/divider is messed up. The other splitter/divider is not there so the valve for the bucket gets 50% of the flow. The travel & steering valve gets 50% of the flow as well because there is nothing to split the flow there either. All new splitter/dividers and the addition of the now missing fwd/reverse valve would probably fix it right up.

Kevin I kinda had the feeling your machine was mis-plumbed from the start when you described a valve input teed into a outlet. Anyway Ive never had a bad item from Surplus Center..I'd be very surprised that your valve difficulty was caused by anything they sold you. They do have a reasonable return policy if the item was indeed defective.

I understand you're not wanting to shoot the moon on the budget with this machine..for my money I'd skip the flow dividers and plumb it (#1)pump circuit for travel/propel(wheel motors) forw/rev-- and the other (#2)pump circuit for steer and loader,either with a priority valve(steer-priority valve) and make the downstream valve the loader valve that way steering takes priority over the loader; or use one of the flow dividers you have..if you go priority valve then you have full flow and no reduction or division of flow GPM,your loader will be faster that way. My articulated loader works great with a priority valve as the steer valve,no issues for over 10yrs other than a blown up pump,but that was a used pump that was over 20yrs old. Do you have any ideas what your relief valve pressures are set at? Typically a valve right out of the box will be at 2000psi give or take...did you do any adjustment to the new valve?

No adjustment to the valves. I am still wondering about how to do that, and do searches every day. So far, no good! The pump only has one outlet. From the divider has two outlets. Why is there pressure between the pump and the divider? 400 PSI is a bit much there and it has not gone down even with the new valve and a larger hose from it back to the return. There is negligible pressure in the other hose from the divider to the loader.
As for Surplus Center....I was told by them that my valve was working perfectly fine and that I could not return it because it is no longer new, and they could not sell it again as new and they have "never" had one of these valves come back... That's the word from Conrad who manages Surplus Center. That is real customer service in my opinion. The zone rep for General Motors didn't go as far as to blame me for the troubles I had with a Buick when I went to arbitration to get a (second) new motor at only 54,000 miles. Yeah, I won that one. I tend to be that guy that gets the "we've never had such happen before" aimed at him. It's just lousy customer service to talk to some one that way.
I read most every day about how wonderful Surplus Center is to do business with. I went to them because of all the praise that was laid upon them and when their technical support guy recommended this valve, I didn't even blink at the price and ordered all the fittings I would need to install it on my loader. When the suggestion was made prior to this transaction that I order fittings and gauges so that I could pressure test the circuits I bought them from Surplus Center. They sent them out the same day I ordered them and they came Priority Mail. I was satisfied. The valve order they sat on for two extra days. This just goes on and on. They've treated you well and you're happy with the service. Me, not so much. I wanted a valve to steer with and control the direction and speed of travel. I made that clear when I was talking with support. this is what they suggested and I purchased https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...lve-Prince-Mfg-RD522GCGA5A4B6-9-4782.axd .
I should have read the items description before placing the order. My mistake in trusting them to get it right.

high pressure between pump and divider would be bad divider in my opinion. but IF its only hi on one side of divider-- that would suggest problem on down the line causing a backup.
sounds like a long way around the block just to get across the street!
as a test, I would unhook the line thats hi and hook it directly back to tank and check pressure. If o.k. divider is ok. next go to the next thing in the line and check it the same way, run hose from backside to tank and check pressure ---lotta work but about the only way to track down the problem child.
In todays world, most companys have "no returns " policies and people they hire dont have a clue whats going on! -----As for surplus center--- I only ordered a couple things from them and that was 40 years ago-----great company back then, and I have no idea about how they are now!

Your right about it being a long way to just cross the street. It is a Prince valve and Prince does have a return policy for defective stuff. Could be that the valve would be fine if used on the loader side of the machine, but I needed a valve for steering and travel control and I had made that clear with the tech support guy that was "helping" me. Thanks for the advice Sonny.

Kevin to adjust the relief valve pressure on the top of the valve right next to the rubber boot there is a big nut,on top of it there is a crown nut with a lock nut underneath..back off the locknut and turn the crown nut in to raise the relief valve pressure and loosen it to turn the pressure down..be sure to retighten the lock nut to lock the setting down.You should have gotten a instruction sheet with the valve..Prince is usually pretty good about that.

I haven't had any problems with Surplus center. I buy A LOT of hydraulic stuff from them But I have never relied on their tech dept. either. Kevin, I don't know what you got for a valve but it doesn't sound like you got a motor spooling valve. Sounds like a bang bang valve as we so lovingly called them in the navy. flow or no flow. can be throttled but its difficult.

I'm not sure it's really fair to expect any company to be able to fix your machine based only on a phone call and some emails. You can't expect surplus center to take back a valve that is very much most likely working correctly. You also shouldn't expect to trouble shoot your machine for you by swapping parts till it works for no return hassle.

Might be time to take it to a hydraulic shop and get someone to look at it with you and troubleshoot it in person.

Were trying to help but you haven't posted any pics of what you have to help us see what you got, or checked all the pressures we asked for.

I've spent probally $4000 with surplus center in the last 10 years and always got what I ordered every time and it all worked. That doesn't mean you ordered the right thing or course. I wouldn't expect the phone tech help guy at SC to know all the answers.

this valve you purchased via the SC data sheet above in this thread states it has a float function on the first spool..are you using this joystick valve with your propel/steer function? if so this may give you issue when using it depending on which spool you used for the propel circuit..push the lever too far and the 1st spool's float function will come into play..this function allows flow from one work port to another,in essence if you have the propel circuit plumbed to it the motors will freewheel,or the steering will free-float..the float function is intended for a loader mast+bucket to follow the ground contours and not apply down force via the cylinders..this alternate application may cause undue vehicle operation for you. Now if you move this valve assembly over to the loader functions,it would be fine for that. My articulated loader uses a standard spool priority flow hydraulic valve for steering, but I wound up using a standard 4-way cylinder valve for the propel circuit as well,not the best scenario but with practice can be operated with precision.

I missed the link when I replied yesterday. Definitely a loader valve. Not recommended for a drive control valve.
How about you at least make a drawing of how your machine is plumbed. we can off all kinds of advice that's totally worthless because it doesn't apply to your issue. rotary splitters don't compensate for OH shits down the road they are in fact fixed output based on input. BIG basic for IMO. That's hydraulic term for I Move Oil. rotary gear hydraulic component are ALL IMO if one output changes it affects EVERYTHING. IMO components will go until something blows up or the drive input just cant hack it.
Pressure compensated splitters however will adjust to keep things equal. If your missing one where there is supposed to be one..... HELLO.. problem.
400 PSI inlet pressure to the first device after the pump is an issue. you need to figure out the cause for that before you can even start any thing else. most likely when you find the restriction that's causing the back pressure you'll find the Base cause of your issue. Fluid power is amazing and wonderful. it can be used for a multitude of purposes BUT fluids don't compress so if some thing isn't right some thing is going to break.
OK I'm Done preaching I won't say any more without seeing what we are supposed to be figuring out.

I hadn't looked at that valve either. That valve is what you need to control the loader only. It has 2 spools so 2 cylinders or pairs of cylinders can be controlled by it.

On your loader you have two sets of cylinders, one for the main lift one for the tilt. Plumb this valve to those two functions. Personally I would mount this valve on the right side of the machine and operate it with my right hand for the loader control.

This is the valve I have for my drive motor. Not saying you need this but this is what I have.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...Motor-Valve-w-Flow-Control-9-7497-30.axd

On my machine I have a 2 spool pump, one flow goes to the motor valve one flow goes to everything else. You have a flow splitter so you have two flows also.

On the side of my hydraulics that goes to the steering and the drives, the fluid enters a single spool valve that has power beyond.

The power Beyonce outlet goes into a 4 spool valve. Spool 1 is loader up and down, spool 2 is loader tilt, spool 3 is aux hydraulics 1, spool 4 is aux hydraulics 2. Then it's return goes to the tank return header.

The way this works is if I am actively steering I can't move the loader, but if the steering valve is neutral I have flow to the 4 spool valve and all my functions. I figured steering is more important than lifting.

On the drive motor side I only have one drive motor and one Valve. The flow goes to the valve, to the pump, back to the valve and to the tank. Applying this to you your down stream splitter is all downstream of the valve so this arrangement should work. I was under the pressio that your second splitter acts like a positive differential between the front and back wheels.

This is the valve I have for my drive motor. Not saying you need this but this is what I have.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...Motor-Valve-w-Flow-Control-9-7497-30.axd

On my machine I have a 2 spool pump, one flow goes to the motor valve one flow goes to everything else. You have a flow splitter so you have two flows also.

On the side of my hydraulics that goes to the steering and the lift
functions , the fluid enters a single spool valve that has power beyond that does the steering.

The power Beyond outlet goes into a 4 spool valve. Spool 1 is loader up and down, spool 2 is loader tilt, spool 3 is aux hydraulics 1, spool 4 is aux hydraulics 2. Then it's return goes to the tank return header.

The way this works is if I am actively steering I can't move the loader, but if the steering valve is neutral I have flow to the 4 spool valve and all my functions. I figured steering is more important than lifting.

On the drive motor side I only have one drive motor and one Valve. The flow goes to the valve, to the pump, back to the valve and to the tank. Applying this to you your down stream splitter is all downstream of the valve so this arrangement should work. I was under the pressio that your second splitter acts like a positive differential between the front and back wheels.

I'm shocked that you aren't using a a divider of any sort to be able to drive and manipulate the bucket. Love the mini hoe having a separate hyd. system for the loader and the hoe but I had to do it the onboard system just wouldn't hold enough oil. There is still a small cylinder in that system for a 3pt hitch but it'll never get used with the back hoe attached.

That above came out different from what I meant. My steering and loader functions are on one section of my pump, the wheel drive circuit is on a seperate section of the pump. The flows come back together before a filter and dumping into the tank

I have two flows, just the same as Gator's machine, one flow is propel thru a standard 4way cylinder valve and one other flow does the steer with power beyond for the loader..Im so used to running it now I really dont notice the loader not moving when steering like when moving snow,lifting and turning..I can turn and use the loader by 'jabbing' the steer valve to steer in short movements..I just concentrate on the loader movements and steering as necessary..I dont have room for a flow divider in my chassis as its very tight already..I was looking for a 3section pump but that goes to a whole new level of expense..so I keep what I have-it works.FWIW I had the Brand Hydraulics motor valve on my machine fro the propel circuit but broke it permanently so I went back to a standard cylinder valve..

KEVIN!! --- hey,-- can you take some pix of the different sections of the hose and valve parts of your loader and post them? ---You can even e-mail them to Gator, Jim, or I and we will post them for you! This will GREATLY help figure out what some of the problems are on your machine.
Just curious ------ but do you have 4 drive motors or just one? I saw somewhere that cad uses 4. That would require a lot more hoses and give more areas for problems to arise from. Thanks!

Gator I've never seen a power 'Beyonce' outlet..is that pipe thread? LOL

Wasnt that a model? or singer? or whatever? LOL!! --- Think he meant beyond ! lol!

Yes she's a singer.
I think Gator corrected himself in the second post..I was just elbow'in him a bit in good spirit

I corrected a couple of things in my reply. its all in good spirit. he musta been listening to Beyonce while he was writing the post.

I can’t believe y’all don’t have a power Beyoncé on your loaders. That’s the French/soul version of a power beyond.....gives your loader better dance moves.

Honestly I couldn’t tell you one thing she sings. I mostly listed to sports radio and talk radio..

THATS what makes MBN what it is!! LOL! -----GREAT GUYS!! ---- Great times had by all! --- its easy to think one thing and type something else! -- happens to me all the time! Also my stiff fingers get stuck between 2 keys and I get both letters on the screen. Tried to find a keyboard with bigger keys ---- no luck so far! I try to read over what I wrote before I hit post, but always miss something! sometimes it can change the whole meaning of a post!! LOL!!

I had typed that on my phone and it autocorrected power beyond to power Beyonce...

I fixed it when I went back to clarify what I meant when Jim questioned me. I saw the Beyonce then...

I have been Talking to Kevin some on FB messanger, he has some health issues that make it difficult for him to get more info. He is working on getting some pics to us to help show the setup.

case of beer says we could have it fixed in a weekend with a handful of fittings maybe a hose or two..prolly get into some trouble testing it out LOL..kinda want to see him use it with ease before snow season ends

we've been playing with this stuff most of our life if not all of it. We could probably get it going with ball valves HA HA HA. we really need to see what it has for plumbing parts and how they're all hooked together.

my long winded answer/suspicion was the original builder salvaged the wrong valves and/or other parts to repair it after a problem..replumbed it after 5-6 adult beverages and didnt understand what was going on..it's not that complex of a system..Kevin threw some good money at it for a new pump,which will benefit him if he keeps the machine,and the loader valve is nice as well..move that over to the loader side of the hydraulics and even just put a std 4-way valve on the propel motors circuit and see what happens..check pressures FWIW we'll see for sure

Thank you for your assistance, one and all. I am going to order a new splitter and a new divider today since the divider was never there and there seems to be something wrong in one of the circuits coming out of the splitter that still generates back pressure and heat at the pump. I have a valve I can use (hopefully) to control fwd/bkwd travel that is supposed to be on the floor panel. I will let you fellas know how that works out when I get it done.

I went to put the new flow divider on and it is about 1.5 inches too long to fit where the original is. Dag nabbit! I could bolt in another ,wider, piece of angle iron in or weld a piece on the original piece, so I guess I'll be headed into the blacksmith shop tomorrow or next week for some supplies.

Kevin watch this video.

This one is theory
Hydraulic Basics - 01

These next two will help you
Hydraulic Basics - 02


Hydraulic Basics - 03


After you watch those, you can search youtube for "Hydraulics Basics - XX" with the XX being 01,02,03 etc. Good info in this series. The other videos go into motors pumups etc

Kevin try to get some numbers or model id's off the valve casting and google it-be sure what valve you have you can use with your system. You could also look at the valve photos on SC to possibly match up the vendor/valve series. When you do fire the system up again, you could lower the relief valve setting to prevent any startup disasters-the relief will open up before anything blows up and save you hassle and money of replacement parts..just a thought
Best of luck.

Another thing to consider Kevin is if safe and reasonable you might hook your flow divider up and zip tie it in place before welding new brackets. You should be able to test it that way before you spend the effort to modify it and it maybe not work.

What fun is it if nothing explodes? It should have self destructed in some way with the old pump in it when it was hitting well over 200 degrees right outside the pump!

Kevin at the bare minimum wear a good pair of safety glasses when working with charged circuits and fittings..the fine spray of pressurized fluid can penetrate the skin and cause serious issues with your health. Be careful and use respect working with these systems.

I hate HYDRAULIC fluid showers. Get plenty from failing hoses and seals.

Got a face full one time from a backhoe when a hose broke right in front of me---knocked me off the seat! That stuff shows no mercy!

Considering that just water under high pressure can cut stone....pressurized fluid is right dangerous. Cutting oils and I don't agree too much with my skin, so I do try to keep gloves and a shield between me and them.. I got a new bracket/shelf made to hold the new geared splitter and got the fittings to mate it into my machine. No welding, just bolts on and the new splitter bolts on to it. I thought about the idea of zip tying it down for a temporary fitment, but since it will be a permanent item, I made a permanent bracket for it. Tomorrow should be good weather...wish me luck.

GOOD LUCK

Gloves won't help with a hydraulic injection. If you get a small crack in a hose it can be leaking so small that you can barely see it. That stream will inject through your gloves and into your skin. Google hydraulic injection injuries. Very bad stuff, anter that injection the hydraulic fluid poisons you and they have to split your arm from one end to the other to get it out.

Never touch a pressurized hose to try to check for leaks and if you do and you feel a sharp sting, you should head to the hospital.

While i've never heard of anyone having a hydraulic injection, I have heard of people blowing off dust and dirt with compressed air and blasting a hole in themselves and inflting themselves like a balloon.

I have the travel valve now installed down stream of the flow divider. The new Concentric geared splitter is now installed . Sunday was a bust as it rained here all day. I have a couple hours work yet to get the loader valve installed. So I should have no more than 5gpm going through the travel valve. The loader valve should not get more than 10-11 gallons per minute and it is rated for quite a bit more. It has a power beyond option built into it. I should have a smooth runner after all this.

Kevin I'd also try switching the outputs around-use the 10gpm output for the propel and the 5gpm for the loader..Im using a 3.35gpm for my loader with 2"lift cylinders and its OK as far as speed,could use a little more-5gpm might be just about right..don't be afraid to switch them around if they have the same fittings-experiment with it....best of luck..hopefully a good outcome

Okay....I'd take pictures, but it would just look like a couple of squids fighting. I have the small divider right in front of the valve for fwd & bkwd &steering valve. 5 gpm may be fine for steering, but I think a 200 year old Galapagos Tortoise could beat me down the alley now. The loader valve is a little jumpy but with a light touch it is okay. I found out that one of the hoses coming from the geared divider needs replaced, like last winter. So that will be a trip to the hose shop. Apparently the machine needs the valve on the floor for foot control of speed and direction with a direct line to the geared divider so that it will get the 10gpm feed it needs to get out of its own way. I will check the temp at the pump later today. I just had it running for a good long while, and the output, at the pump, was 54*. I take that to mean the the geared divider originally on the machine was failing some how. I will take it apart for inspection when I take the original pump apart as well. Now for the $64,000 question: If I use the 2 circuit valve for 1 circuit should I just plug the unused circuit or would it be better to loop those outlets together with a steel line...there shouldn't be any flow required from that circuit, either option would be just to keep dirt and rainwater from getting in there.

bunkclimber...I will try switching stuff around as soon as I get the correct fittings, and figure out where the divider can go.

I think you would need the 10 flow for the travel----- 5 would be painfully slow! ---- just my 02.

Hello Sonny,
Yup, it is painfully slow. So now I have some more thinking to do. I'm just glad it is running cooler and not going to toast the new pump.

By two circuit I am assuming you mean a two spool valve (which means that it has two handles and four work ports). If that is the case, just plug the two ports you are not using. You could also take the handle off. If you do hit it and it's plugged it will go to the relief pressure and then relieve. It won't hurt anything, but you wouldn't want to dead head it continiously. If you leave them open you would make a heck of a hydraulic fluid sprinkler eventually. Your favorite store Surplis center sells the plugs that you will need. Look at the specs on your valve and it will show the proper threads to match the plug to.

I don't know why I used "circuits" instead of spools.????? There is a joy stick on the valve. I may just leave it as it is until Spring. Maybe, maybe not.

you are correct Kevin in using the term 'circuits'-hydraulics in the sense of mobile hydraulic power use circuit patterns to route the fluid(oil) in and out of elements(pumps,valves,cylinders and motors) and then back to the tank. Spools are the actual ground and polished control rod parts of the valve that slide in and out of the valve body casting that make the fluid directional changes that control the flow. For my money I'd cap off the fittings on the unused valve ports so there is no possibility of a spool move creating a mess,or otherwise,contamination getting INTO the system.If you are going to place another oder for fittings get a few extra caps and 90's while you are at it that will fit your system hose sizes-put em in a drawer..never know when u might need em..cheaper than separate shipping and waiting on fittings FWIW

I agree with Bunk but don't be like me and forget where you put them.. I am working on getting all my Hydraulic stuff in 1 place. I keep finding BAGS of fittings that I must have received and just carried out to the shop and set on a shelf in a hurry. I really need to take inventory of all of it too. Thought I had fittings for that loader valve I got on AMAZON because it was cheap... nothing I have fits properly so I'm going to order some.. I fear it's just SHIT china machining...

Kevin

Circuits is an excellent way to visualize hydraulics systems. As a complete numbnuts on hydraulic functioning it helps me.

Jim

I can sympathize with you on throwing stuff on the shelf and forgetting. Sometime ago there was some discussion on HSM (I think) about Chinese induction heaters. Looked on Bangood, found one for about $20, bought it, worked like a charm. I had to replace the transmission drive belt on my Cub. Instruction is to remove fan/drive pulley pull off old & put on new belt. Easy if the damn transmission had a decent nut on the input shaft. Aha, perfect place to use my heater to remove nut.

Now four+ months later I still have not found it, don't have a F'g clue where it is. I am assuming the heater got dumped into the round file There are hand held heaters available in the $200 range the Chinese heater will accomplish the same thing using a 12V battery or two.

I have been attempting to organize my stuff into a semblance of order to cut down on on on the search for stuff that should come to hand easily. Minimal success!

JLG

Easiest way to find a lost tool is to buy a replacement. The original will show up just as soon as the replacement is no longer returnable!

BINGO

Old as Dirt, I moved your post over to a new topic, (Induction heaters, in general discussion)

Another day of farting around with this thing.... I had the second divider/splitter in place which reduced the input to the travel and steering to approx. 5 gpm. Travel became so slow that if I were to drive it down to the end of my street, any toddler that lived there when I started would be a college graduate by the time I got there. I can see down to the end of my street! Out came the second divider/splitter. Steering is okay; there are restrictors in the elbows fittings coming out of the valve. Travel is okay speed wise, but getting started is nuts...it wants to hop like a bunny when I try to get started gently. It acts like a dragster with a poorly designed rear suspension....right before it blows up. If I just jam it all the way, it acts fine There is no fine or less than full speed throttle. The valve is getting approx. 10 gpm as is the loader control valve, which is now the New Prince valve. I would like to be more precise, but it can be feathered, and I can live with that.....I have to go measure for some new hose to replace the ones that are cracked.
Good day to you all!

O.k,--- the "bunny hop" MIGHT be a natural thingy! ---- an example of that would be my Sunstar 20 garden tractors! --- they are a bit hoppy too and they were factory built. --- I think a bit of hop is natural in most but not all hydraulic drives. --- all of the ones I have ever been around run that way.
I have a couple lawnmowers that are really jumpy. one is an old craftsman and one is a yardman (MTD company) both 16hp Kohlers on them and have hydro units made in Indiana under them.

Here is the motor valve that I have in my loader. It will feather the flow perfectly, absolutely no jumping. I can easily move the loader 1/2" at a time in low gear. I have 22 gpm to my drive circuit at 1800 rpm. I did add the center return kit to that valve to make the handle return to center. One difference is that I an only turning one hydraulic motor, your circuit is a lot more complicated.
What valve are you using for the motor feed?

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...Motor-Valve-w-Flow-Control-9-7497-30.axd

It could be the hokey way cattrac ties all the wheel motors together. I can see if one motor was getting all the flow, it would pull, then the others might try to turn and that might feel like surging. Would be interesting to hook up one motor to the drive and see if the jumping goes away.

If the valve you are using isn't a motor valve it could cause this also. A motor valve allows flow to pass when you return the valve to neutral. This would allow the machine to roll while the handle is in the center. If you had a valve made for the loader in the drive, it would shut the flow off completely when returned to center. This would immediately lock the wheels up, also if you tried to push it forward then stop, the jerking would make you move the handle back and forth making it worse.

yes Gator I had that valve on my loader but broke it I was so pissed even with replacement parts from Brand It couldnt be fixed..went back to a STD cylinder valve for my motor..hard to operate if you dont feather it...so want to get another but at 431 bux its gonna haveta wait, I think when I bought it the first time it was around $350..anyway maybe if Kevin were to jack the Cadtrak up and run it a bit in drive fow/rev it might clear up? even if it would self-purge,maybe some air in the system between motors? just an idea

Yeah it sounds like air but that should have purged out by now. Maybe not.
try making the handle longer. that way you will have finer control. the longer the handle the further you have to move it to shift the spool. simpler fix for now . Just another thought.

Haven't done much lately except putting the flow restrictors in the travel and direction valve. I only had 2 and need to make up 2 more. I've been kind of busy with appointments. Dentist pulled a tooth (only 1 wisdom tooth left! no wonder I feel so stupid lately) Neurologist prescribed a new med, a dud I might add. Bad side effects. And a new cardiologist who also prescribed 2 new meds for the heart, and diagnosed or suggested a diagnosis that I have managed to damage the part of my brain that controls swallowing and a bunch of other stuff. Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins or UPMC. Any one here have experience with any of them re neurological problems??? Oh yeah, and the Coupe de Gras...wife's car will not pass inspection as it is too rusted in both the rear suspension cradle and the rocker panels on both sides. Dumped a cup of coffee on 3 month old lap top and now can't get in to new laptop as the simple password I chose has been deleted from my (damaged) brain!

I did get what I need to make the 2 more flow restrictors. I will let you all know that works out. Jim, the longer handle idea may save this mess yet!

yeah Kevin-Wisdom teeth are a bitch no matter what age you are..anyway I had a brain tumor back in '95 took out a golfball lump in the back L quad,Im Ok still gettin er done..I was young back then and healed fast..one thing I have noticed is my short term memory sometimes gets the best of me,I write things down to remember them,then I lose the friggen paper i made the notes on..maybe thats middle age comin on..no meds prescribed as I wouldnt take em anyway, Im off everything no drugs at all-(sometimes the Wild Turkey gets me tho) and feel great..Instead of getting it done in two days now some things take a week or so,but I have wisened up as to maybe look at things a bit harder now before I act,with materials getting more expensive every day(just spent $12 for two 2x4's) I find a bit of sitting down and studying things first goes a long way..I have good days and bad days,sometimes I get the 'drops'-just cant hold onto anything..I attribute that to many hours holding and using a 4.5"angle grinder-nerve issues in my hands..eye to hand to hand coordination is OK,no issues with eating or anything like you mention.I'd try to stay off meds as much as possible,the docs will prescribe all kinda stuff..ruby grapefruit and sunshine does it for me..nice weekend comin up here I plan to get outside for some fresh air..much needed