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Backhoe Build Questions #1576 10/16/2020 01:11 PM
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I made an attempt to purchase an ARPS tractor backhoe and failed (previous post). Unit didn't run. It had a Wisconsin V4 that was dead, could not test any functions plus price was too high so I passed.

Downloaded Jim Buntings plans and am ready to order metal to weld up a backhoe.

Question: Has anyone build one and if so do you have comments or suggestions. The design is similar to commercial units and the comments I've read on the Chinese units concern pin and hole wear which is addressed in this design.

Thanks
JLG


James Geraci
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1577 10/16/2020 07:18 PM
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sonny Offline
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The one I made was made from pieces I drug out of junkpiles and welded together, --- but works and I didnt use any plans on mine.
I have seen some nice work done when building them. The main thing is to make sure you put grease zerks in the bushings so they can be kept greased.


"A machine you build yourself is a vote for a different way of life. There are things you have to earn with your hands."
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1578 10/16/2020 11:55 PM
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I didn't build a hoe, but when I built the loader for my machine. I lined the pin holes with DOM tubing that was welded in then reamed to a tight fit. That would be for the non turning surfaces, for the bushings in teh arms, I welded in tubing then pressed in bronze bushings, then reamed those to size. Of course added grease zerks, grooves etc so that everything gets grease.

I looked up and the details of what I did are on the part 5 PDF on my build page.

http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=310#Post310

Not saying it's perfect but it seems to work ok, My machine bas about 200 hours and I don't have any looseness yet.

A lot comes down to what machining capabilities you have and what level you want to take it to.


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Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1579 10/17/2020 07:18 PM
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Sonny: I envy your junk pile. You could load mine into a P/U. The big pieces of the frame are straight forward it's the little crap that drives me nuts. It's nice to have a list that you can refer to. I have enough small scrap on hand to cover the bulk of small bits and pieces..

GatorS: I will read your build info. The plans call for cold rolled rod and DOM tube with Zerks. For my use I think the bronze bushings are over kill. I think just greasing the pivots is enough. The loader on my tractor needs the pins replaced I'm hoping I won't have to bush the pivot tubes. The upside of pin replacement is that I can order a chinesum mag drill if I have to add bushings.

Does your machine have a transmission ? If so what did you use. I have toyed the idea of with adding motive power to the hoe at some point to make it mobile at the dig site using a hydraulic motor.

I have enough machery to do whatever is necessary, what I lack is the necessary skill to run some of it well. If I F*** it up at least I screwed it up on the cheap.

Thanks for the comments

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1581 10/18/2020 06:14 AM
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OAD, depending on what bronze you use you might find it can't take impact forces..I made bushings out of oillite bronze for a machine and they fractured under the stress impact..I personally think if you use steel with zerks and pump some grease into it every time(or nearly every time) you use it you will be fine..go as big as you can on the diameter of your pins for the most working surface to spread to load onto..as far as your tubing for the hoe I think I would keep with 1/4 or better on the wall thickness of your tubing..when you can go rectangular.You can find deals on eBay for your cold-rolled pins and DOM/mechanical tubing,lot of people selling drops for cheap.

Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1582 10/18/2020 10:53 AM
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Sometimes checking around you can get reasonable prices,----just takes time.
I lack machines here to make stuff, so it's always been the torch, welders, grinders, and a chimna cutoff saw that I have used for years.
Still have not got my south bend set up yet ------ going to need help putting the jackshaft up to drive it and find a reversing motor to put on it.

A drawing of the general parts is helpful and will give a good idea of all the little stuff needed. ---- I didnt have anything when I made my excavator, just junkpiles, torch and welder on that one, so it looks really crude but does dig good ------been down 17.5 feet with it so I was pleased the way it turned out.
Also was going to rig a hydraulic motor up to drive the rear axle and finish hooking up the outriggers but never got around to it. I have been dragging it around behind tractors and trucks and set the brakes on them to hold the hoe down while digging and found it takes a good sized unit to hold it from sliding off into the hole! lol!!


"A machine you build yourself is a vote for a different way of life. There are things you have to earn with your hands."
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1584 10/18/2020 11:58 AM
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I've been slacking on here. Got a lot going on. I didn't use anything on the mini hoe and Now I have to go back & fix it but I have over 200 hrs. on it so I don't feel bad. May be I'll actually get it painted finally if it's all apart. Gotta get that MG out of my way first. I got 1/4 Wall DOM tube to make things right. I figure if nothing at all lasted this long then I should be good for a Looong time. Working on putting Metal roof lean-to on the side of the shop Like I did in the back a few years ago.


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1585 10/18/2020 11:59 AM
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Bunk: I was aware that bronze/Oilite could fail when it is subject to impact loads. I simply am not knowledgeable enough to use it. I do know enough about steel to use rod & tube for the pivots with grease. Bunting calls for 1" rod and 1" ID tubing. Seems like a reasonable compromise on pin dia vs 3" x 1/4 wall tubing. I vaguely recall a YouTube showing the repair of a Case B/H lower pivot and it had two bronze bearings with a large pin, couple inches at least. But I doubt it saw a lot of impact load like bucket or lower arm would. BUt I'm a s***** mechanical engineer.

I live on a sloping lot and I need to install water control to move the water around and away from the house. When I moved here (NW Houston TX) it was good. Then we had a long drought and trees grew and increased shade. Result no grass, soil moving. Also need some concrete work and stump removal. All at the surface or 3' down.

Sonny: I have a small Iron worker which I CAN use and a Atlas 12" Comml lathe which I am a complete tryo at running. My other stuff is similar to yours. I do have an old Cebora plasma cutter, a HF sand blast cabinet and 20T press (Chinese Tons). Frost line is maybe 6" so I doubt if I would need to dig more than 4-5 ft

I thought about a way to add a hyd motor to move the unit under it's own power. Maybe later.

I have enough scrap to cover a lot of the bits and pieces, but I have to say I didn't think of Ebay for metal.

Thanks for your comments

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1587 10/18/2020 12:09 PM
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Jim: All I was looking for was those OH S*** moment that someone had run across while or after assembly.

I have to erect some sort of building. Either a pole building or a container setup with a roof. Lots of containers in this area for sale. Another use for a small hoe.

Thanks for the comments

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1589 10/18/2020 06:55 PM
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We all have had something crop up after assembly and had to re-do part of a machine! --- nuttin to be ashamed of for sure LOL!!


"A machine you build yourself is a vote for a different way of life. There are things you have to earn with your hands."
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1590 10/18/2020 08:48 PM
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My machine has a hydraulic motor driving into a sm465 manual transmission that is married to a NP205 transfer case, then drive shafts to the chevy axles. You could take a hydraulic motor and drive directly into a axle to make it move, add a motor spool valve and it will drive nicely.

Steel bushings made from DOM will work fine, no need to have the bronze, you can buy DOM at the final size and cut to length, turn square on your lathe. When you weld them in they will be tight, on mine I ran a 1" reamer through them. I actually welded a socket onto a straight reamer and ran them through with an impact. The reamer lasted through a bunch of pins and I still have it.

For pins I used 4140, cut to length and used. I didn't try to harden the pins but probably should have. I only have about 250 hours on my machine, but so far I can't detect any wear in the steel to steel places, or the steel and bronze joints. I expect all the joints to last as long as I do. Grease is you friend.


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Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1592 10/19/2020 05:11 AM
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I made all the pins and bushings for my GT loader on a worn out 1898 Hendey lathe, converted from flat belt drive. Missing a bunch of gears, but it doesn't take much to make pins and bushings, they are all simple straight cuts, maybe a little drilling, boring, and facing off. Break the edges with a file. Don't even need to learn to use a cut-off tool if you don't want to, just saw it off with enough room to clean it up after. Surface finish can be horrible, it's just going to get welded into something else anyway. Learned to use it as I went. Bought it from a cranberry farmer...who used it to turn pins and bushings.

You aren't even doing fancy stuff like making sure surfaces are concentric and all that, you're just making tubes that will fit in hole sawed holes and accept a pin, and maybe drilling pins for zerks if there won't be a good place in the bushing to put one.

There were a couple places I forgot to put zerks when building, I found out the hard way and had the pins gall. Got them pressed out of the machine with a porta-power, reamed the tubes and polished the pins to clean them up again, drilled the side of the bushing, threaded 1/4 NF and added zerk, slapped it all back together, greased it right and proper and away we go.

Some of my pins are cold rolled, some hot rolled, some are 12L14, some are grade 5 bolts. For as little use as they get on a homeowner machine, they don't show much wear at all.

I follow a couple of excavator type guys on youtube, and every so often they will replace pins and bushings on their machines. What I have noticed is that a factory "tight" spec for them is what I would call a very loose running fit. Like 10 thou play or more, there is audible rattle on their machines even with "new" bushings. With grease, they still last a long time under heavy use.

So my take-away from that is that aim for a loose to merely snug fit. A too tight fit can cause problems. None of this is rocket surgery.

Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1594 10/19/2020 01:42 PM
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what I have learned, (#1) when you buy(or appropriate)your bushing and pin material, buy enough to make some repairs later..you may not remember or be able to find the same material when you need to repair or modify the machine..I bought extra to support repairs later..(#2) lesson learned if you need (2)two hydraulic adapters or fittings, then order 4, because you WILL need them later. The shipping is the same for 2 or 4, and they are usually only $3-4 dollars apiece,cheaper than a fast food hamburger and they don't go bad...to reorder for only one or two fittings when something breaks or you have to modify something then you have to pay shipping all over again and wait.My hydraulics fittings drawer has saved my butt numerous times.FWIW

Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1599 10/19/2020 10:14 PM
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Sonny: I've built some stuff that was such a poor solution that I just started over.

GatorS: The mobility was my reason for screwing around with a delusion seller on the ARPS tractor B/H. It would mean that it would be mobile on its own while still being relatively small. I planned on using mild steel for the pins and harder grade for bushings to wear the pins more that the bushing. I thought I likely would need to drill/ream the bushing after welding. I planned on Zerks on joints. I didn't consider bronze bushing as I it will be a low use machine and overkill.

GLyford: I plan to use a mild steel for pins and a harder steel for bushing, all with grease fittings. I appreciate your "pin clearance" comments as I would be inclined to go toward minimal clearance. Thinking about it, a loose fit would encourage grease migration throughout the the whole joint if you pumped new grease into it on a regular basis. Must be why my stepfather spent so much time greasing his machinery before using it in the field.

bunk: Excellent point. When I moved here to NW Houston I bought a bigger riding mower. My lot is 1.5 acres mostly grass. Got pissed at the prices local mower shops charged for parts. Started buying stuff online in lots to reduce cost and make sure I can keep mower running as I used it as a hauler too. Too old to carry crap very far anymore. I would never appropriate anything. I have heard that plaintive voice calling out me "take me home - set me free" and as a freedom loving person I seek to oblige.

Appreciate everyone's comments

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Backhoe Build Questions [Re: Old as Dirt] #1603 10/23/2020 06:11 PM
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JIM Offline
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so... this is what I got to fix the slop.. I used grade-8 bolts for the pins...

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.

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