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Machine Pins and Bushings #1627 10/30/2020 02:19 PM
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Jim

You posted your recent tubing and pin selection for machine tool use. Please explain what your criteria was for the tubing wall thickness. I would have chosen ~1/4" wall. I ask since I know absolutely nothing on what factors you would use in picking the wall thickness.

I get the bolt selection as a pin since they are available in infinite variety of dia, lghs, etc.

I've been dragging my feet on ordering steel since I need to spec tubing and shafting parameters, plus there is a damaged small 3P B/H avail cheap that would fit my needs, at less than cost of steel.

Thanks

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1628 10/30/2020 08:13 PM
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James
You addressed your question to Jim, but I thought I'd give comment..tubing wall thickness you use depends on where and what,what goes for one use might be marginal elsewhere..I'd stick to 3/16 or better tubing,common 1/8" wall thickness for me just doesnt have enough metal there for strength..once you weld it there's even more stresses to be supported my the metal..thicker is better in a hoe that will get pounded along the course of its life..Most of the tubing available at my local steel supplier is 3/16 and some 1/4 and 3/8. I think more importantly is the inch size of tubing and try to go rectangular if you can for strength along longitudinal members like backhoe dippers and booms..sure square tubing will work but rectangular would be stronger along the length..look out when you put holes in it as well,you are adding critical stress points,the holes reduce chord height and strength..and as always dont weld vertically across the member,just like a truck frame welding vertically across one will cause the notch effect,first place to break..try to weld the crack up and you shift the problem,it'l crack right along the weld again and again..anyway my mini loader uses 2x4" frame tubing,1/4wall with 1-1/2" mechanical tubing at the joints with a 1"hole in the middle,gives you 1/4" of meat to weld to all around it and uses 1" 4140 steel pins,i pick 1700lbs with it on a regular basis no issues yet after 10yrs operation..2"bore lift cylinders, they have 3/4"pins in them..some of the main frame pins are bigger,frame articulation pins are 1-1/2", the pin bosses were made from 2"round stock,standard A36 mild steel.You can go a long way with 1"pins,as long as you have pin bosses welded on the outside of the tubing to support the pin it'l work out OK. The bigger you can go the better. It takes a lot to shear a 1"tool steel pin,even mild steel for that matter....hope that helps you

Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1629 10/30/2020 09:46 PM
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JIM Offline
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1/4" wall for every thing that I'm putting the punishment to. For the the frame on my mini hoe I used 3x3 square tube 1/4 wall. I went with the 1/4" wall DOM tube mostly because it was easiest to get with the 1" id and enough meat for a stress point. Personal preference for me. Bunk nailed it... definitely don't go less than 3/16.


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1630 10/31/2020 05:48 AM
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James,if you are buying NEW steel to work with for a machine project,it only takes a little more $$ to go with 1/4"wall over the 3/16. After all the effort you will put into a build only to have a failure due to thin material not up to the stress, 1/4" is worth the extra money. Something else to think about is machine weight, the more your machine weighs the more stable it will be..there are exceptions to that,but a heavier loader or hoe will be able to breakout more dirt and move more with ease..more traction with a heavier machine..no lecture here just experience, and go out and get some 4x4 and 6x6 wood and cut it up into blocks to prop materials up on,and for when you are under the machine when building..safety first..I work on equipment all day and good shoring and blocking is mandatory. Ive been injured and have had many close calls.-shake hands with danger stuff..be careful,protect yourself..you can always start over with new steel, but you only get one set of fingers on each hand..best of luck

Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1631 11/01/2020 05:54 PM
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sonny Offline
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I agree with the guys---DONT skimp on steel on a loader or backhoe!! They take a beating ---how many commercial hoes and loaders have you seen with welded patches on them when they were broke and repaired? --- I understand the big suffer more abuse than our smaller ones would but the same factor goes! --extra thickness = extra strength.


"A machine you build yourself is a vote for a different way of life. There are things you have to earn with your hands."
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1634 11/02/2020 01:41 PM
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Bunk
Jim
Sonny

Thanks for opinions and suggestions. I spent my adult life working in the electrical + surplus industry. I have built or had built many electrical devices/assemblies, but I have almost no experience with load bearing assemblies that have rotating joints.

What I was looking for were validations of my own opinions on how to build a small B/H similar to what HF and others are selling online. Adding pins and bushings, rather than using loose pins in drilled holes as pivot points. The biggest complaint on the HF unit is wear or deformation on the movable joints and slow hydraulic response. Most people are pleased with the HF unit, but the price has increased enough to make constructing one viable.

Wow! All that B/S to say I was picking your brains to see if my assumptions are reasonable.

My plan was to follow the B/H plans from MBN site. At this point point I believe I will use 3 x 4 x 1/4 Rect for the boom, use 3 x 3 x 1/4 for the frame. Use 1" ID 1/4" wall bushings and a larger lower pivot assm as I have a couple of 1-1/2" pin and tube assms that I may be able to use. I have a 13HP HF engine. I also like the idea of using GR 8 bolts as pins. I have a small qty of "good" scrap anything else will likely be new, I agree on not skimping I hate doing crap twice.

I live on a sloping lot. I need to add drainage to move water away from the house, trench for electric power, dig some old stumps, build a foundation for a building, etc.
Remember this is TX. I could walk into the yard with a spade and uncover my water line with two shovelfuls. Don't need to dig deep as places that freeze 3' down.

Thank you all for taking the time to share your opinions, I read them but I've been tied up rehabbing my "goat shed" to use as a greenhouse this winter. No goats not much of a shed either, But it worked as a framework past winters, just need to use half, as plastic film costs an arm.

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1635 11/02/2020 01:56 PM
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with a 13hp engine mount a 11gpm 2-stage hyd pump,that'l give you fast response times with 3in bore cyls and it will kick down the pump into the low section for digging power at a lower flow rate..you can vary the engine rpm easily with a 2-stage pump you can run lower rpms..easier to control and on the ears as well..surpluscenter has good deals on surplus cyls,theyve always been good FWIW.

Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1636 11/03/2020 02:54 PM
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Here's a link to my mini hoe build on flickr. I started out with a 14 hp kohler that's what was on the tractor when I got it. I built this back in 2011... It's got a HF engine on it now. I have a 11 gpm 2 stage pump. moves fast not under load at a lower pressure when you get a load it drops to the 2.3 gpm single stage for more power without lugging the engine. I have 2.5 x 8" cylinders. I can dig down to 6' but the highest the bucket goes is about 3'. I wish I built it with a better swing. I think I'm only at about 100deg. total 170 or even 180 would be a lot better in hind site. I may correct that when I tear it down to weld in the bushings. I think I'll ust a little bigger cylinder for the swing too. I only have 1.5 on the swing and it swings the boom just fine unless your trying to sweep dirt back into a trench. Just doesn't have enough ass for that. I built this so it could be removed in short time. The Loader and the back hoe are attached to each other and the tractor is merely a means to move them around and provide the hydraulic power. It very rarely got run much over an idle.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jim0421/albums/72157628142173323


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1652 11/05/2020 07:37 AM
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JIM Offline
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Grade 8 bolts are by the pound at tractor supply


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1655 11/05/2020 10:28 AM
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Jim

Thanks for posting your pictures. I've looked thru them twice in between stapling plastic to the goat shed. It is interesting. I was aware of the "bolts by the pound" at TSC. I have to admit I have not used them even though there are two stores about close by. I managed to acquire numerous bolts for inspection and evaluation at my previous employer. Well they were out in racks and no signs "not for home use"

Are the joysticks your design?

Thanks
JLG


James Geraci
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1658 11/05/2020 11:33 AM
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Yeah I think I got the idea from a post over on tractor by net. The hard part is finding the little ball joints now I got those at Northern Tool before they quit carrying go kart parts they're tie rod ends. I think I have a whole album on my Flickr that's just the joysticks.


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1664 11/05/2020 02:13 PM
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I have seen the setup before. I have several dead computers that I need to pull the HDs out of and download what I saved. I vaguely remember saving a group of pics for DIY joysticks.

Thanks for reminding me. Could be you posted it before, as I lurked on the orig MBN for a while before I joined just as Matt Kramer passed. I joined again after The Three Godfathers resurrected the site.

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1666 11/05/2020 02:21 PM
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JIM Offline
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Yeah I think there was a whole string up about joysticks it might even be in the archives section on this site.


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1667 11/05/2020 04:01 PM
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I know I have posted a series of pictures of mine a couple of times...

Last edited by GLyford; 11/05/2020 04:02 PM.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1668 11/05/2020 04:16 PM
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If anybody has stuff they posted on the old site and its not here ---please repost it if you dont mind! --- starting over again is a bear but there was something personal about MBN, thats why us 3 got together an decided to revive MBN as best as we can!
All help and donations are welcomed too! Thanks!


"A machine you build yourself is a vote for a different way of life. There are things you have to earn with your hands."
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1675 11/05/2020 08:45 PM
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JIM Offline
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Yeah I tried to download the old site... ended up with a bunch of links that we couldn't get to.


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1677 11/05/2020 10:28 PM
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JIM Offline
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joy sticks album.. has a couple more close up shots..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jim0421/albums/72157629064370698


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1680 11/06/2020 06:00 AM
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GLyford Offline
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Here's what I have:

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com][Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com][Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Back (arms up):
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Right (bucket dump):
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Forward (arms down):
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Left (bucket curl):
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

If I wanted to swap which spool operates which function, I could flip the plate over (and swap the handle to the other side). And it doesn't matter which way your valve bank is facing, up forward back left right whatever, I have mine up on its side so I have room for my knee. I think some garden tractor have theirs under the floor pan and use longer rods to push pull, if you do it right that can make it even easier to setup because now you can change the linkage spacing since you aren't tied directly to the valve spindle and linkage spacings.

I think there is enough detail there that you can sort of work out the operating logic, what you are trying to do is get the pivots of the rod ends in line with the handle link and spool in each direction. The other thing to note is that the spools can (usually?) turn in their bores to make bolting them to the rod ends easier. You can see the "normal" handle-spool orientation on my 3rd spool.

I will also point out that sometimes there are surplus handle (or even cable remote) setups available that are pretty cheap. It is fun to work this stuff out and get it to work, but sometimes throwing money at the problem is a better solution...especially if it ends up being a smoother and more reliable setup.

Last edited by GLyford; 11/06/2020 06:10 AM.
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1683 11/06/2020 10:16 AM
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Jim
Sonny
GLyford

Thanks, I appreciate all the effort of original members to repost their joystick info. I remember saving some of it on another computer, don't remember if it was from MBN or elsewhere. I do remember being amazed that you could adapt single lever blocks to joysticks using common repurposed parts. My hydraulic knowledge is limited and all those hoses and levers make my old eyes glaze over. Hydraulics are like black magic to me.

Going to have to stop taking an after supper nap and go thru my stash of dead computer HDs to see what I stored on them.

Thanks for the effort!

JLG


James Geraci
Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1684 11/06/2020 11:41 AM
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I think Cross or Prince does offer a ready-made backhoe joystick valve assembly complete with stabilizer valves for outriggers as well, twin joysticks controlling sectional valves..From what I remember Surplus Center has them around $700..which seems like alot until you total up all the parts and joystick stuff its a dead even deal..they also sell the joystick attachments by themselves for sectional valves,that might be something to look into as a starting point on one,then build your own.I couldnt use them as I used single special monoblock valves for mine...I think when I build a hoe for my small tractor loader I'l probably just buy the ready made valve assembly and build everything else around that..I built the joysticks on my articulated loader around what I saw here on MBN, and they don't work too bad..one for propulsion/steer and the other joystick for the loader..it allowed me to use different valves for the different functions..a large power beyond equipped valve for the steer/loader as it's two different pump flows and steer takes priority over the loader functions.The propulsion flow is just a standard 4way valve controlled by the other axis of the steer joystick as well.

Re: Machine Pins and Bushings [Re: Old as Dirt] #1696 11/08/2020 08:22 AM
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JIM Offline
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I got my sectional valve on sale. I looked at the joystick valves and the price difference was crazy. that was over 5 years ago though. what I have on the tractor now cost less than half what the ready to go joystick valve would have cost me then.


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.

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