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Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: GatorS] #1890 12/21/2020 10:59 PM
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Kevin Werner Offline OP
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I cannot find your filter set up.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1891 12/21/2020 11:44 PM
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What is the displacement of the pump that you put on? Also most little gas engines run about 3600 rpm. Trying to guess your flow rates vs the hose sizes.

From your statement above, of 700 and 400 psi, pressure is only generated to a point that is needed to move the flow through the system. The side that is using 700 psi unloaded has a restriction that needs 700 psi to move your volume of fluid through the restriction. Same thin on the 400 psi side. When they come back to together to go through the filter, the pressure will drop. After the filter it goes into a tank with 0 back pressure. If you measure the pressure after your last valve but before the filter, you will be reading what it takes to push the fluid through the filter to the tank.

Think about this for the heat. It takes a certain amount of energy to get the fluid up to 400 or 700 psi. That energy is from the engine from the pump to the fluid. When that pressure is dropped the fluid still has that energy, since it is no longer being stored as pressure and velocity, it turns into heat. Basically all the energy of the pump is going into heating the fluid. When we solve the pressure issue your problem will go away.

Again we need pics of your rig to help troubleshoot. Send me a PM on here if you need help posting pics and I will send you my phone number to help you post them.


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Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: GatorS] #1892 12/22/2020 09:29 PM
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it is an Honor pump, 2GG9U22R Pump, Gear, 1.31 C.I./ 2-Bolt 'A' mount, #16 SAE In / #12 SAE Out, 3/4 x3/16 Keyed Shaft x 2" Long, CW Rotation. This is what was suggested by the customer service rep at Honor Pumps down in Corpus Christie, TX http://www.honorpumps.com/ I bought from them because the original was an Honor. The rep said that it should give me a little more than than 18 gpm. I don't have an indoor place to work on the loader. We had snow last night and everything was slop this morning, so no work done today. tomorrow looks like good weather.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1894 12/23/2020 11:11 AM
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Some good reference information:

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Tech-Help-Home/

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Calculators/Pump-Disp-HP-GPM-RPM/

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Hose-Sizing/

If you are running a lawn mower style gas engine, it is probally running at 3,600 rpm. 1.31 in^3/rev *3600 = 20.42 gpm. If most your hoses are JIC 8, they are probally 1/2" hoses. Using the recommended flow valocities on suprlus center in the links above,

Q (flow in gpm) = 2.45 * D^2 * V V=velocity, D= diameter, Q = flow in gpm. recomended flow is 11-18 in pressure lines, 2-4 in suction, and 4-13 in return lines (from surplus center site above)

I don't know what size lines you have but say your hoses are .5"

V=Q/(2.45*D^2) so V=20.42/(2.45*.5^2) = 33.3 ft/second. The 2.45 accounts for all the unit conversions. That is double the recommended velocity, if you mix in a 3/8 fitting somewhere in the line and you have 59 ft/s. If you go to 5/8 V drops to 21, 3/4 hose and you get 14, 1" hose, 8.3 ft/sec., 1.5" hose = 3.7 ft/second.

This means that you need a 1.5" hose from your tank to your pump, 3/4" lines from the pump to your flow divider (and a divider rated at over 20 gpm), 1/2 in lines to your valves (flow is split in two), then 1" or larger where everything comes back together to go through the filter and tank. And of course the filter needs to be sized for at least 20-30 gpm.

I would start with lookin at all your hose sizes, and thinking about the velocities (that in turn generate back pressures of 400 and 700 psi) before changing any more expensive parts. If all that is fine then something is piped wrong. They could also have a valve on there that is rated for 5 gpm and your feeding it 10, it would still work, but not without causing heating issues.

Before you start replacing hoses, you need to complete the pressure measurements so that you can confirm your issues

Again.............please post pics of your machine and hose routing or we are just guessing and not really helping.

Last edited by GatorS; 12/23/2020 01:37 PM.

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Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: GatorS] #1895 12/23/2020 02:23 PM
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Can't find the good camera and the camera in my old flip cell just doesn't cut it. I've been thinking about the motors. Are the drive motors supposed to all be the same? If they are identical once they are flipped side to side and shouldn't the hoses be reversed, making kind of an x from the central t ? Just another point I ponder. And shouldn't the hoses be t'd into the line for forward and then t'd into the line for reverse? Let me see if I can find the camera.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1896 12/23/2020 11:04 PM
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I don't know what motors were used on your machine but I believe they are all supposed to be the same. Since the motors should be reversible the hoses would need to be routed so they go the right direction when the fluid goes in whichever port. If that was wrong you would know that quickly.

If I remember reading about these years ago, The motors are piped in parallel between all four. I think I remember some discussion about the fittings being under sized some so that if one wheel lost traction and started spinning out, the small fitting would create back pressure due to the increased flow through that spinning motor, that back pressure would then be applied to the other wheels that had grip and hopefully keep the machine moving.


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Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1898 12/23/2020 11:55 PM
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What does "deadhead the valve" mean?

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1899 12/24/2020 05:57 AM
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Open center hydraulic: Pump creates flow, which always goes through valve and back to tank. When a valve opens this flow is redirected into that function, if there is resistance to that flow then a load is on the system (such as a cylinder lifting or reaching end of travel) pressure builds and the "relief" which is a ball on a stiff spring releases and diverts to the tank. So the relief keeps the system from building more pressure than the pump (or hoses, or cylinders, or valves, but especially the pump) can withstand. So to "deadhead" the system is to do something to make the pressure build until the relief valve open, usually run a cylinder against its end stop. Can be deliberate (as a test) or not.

Closed center: Pump creates pressure, and when pressure drops changes to create volume. This system closes all the valves off to retain pressure when flow is not needed.

Some of the fun comes when a hobby builder scrounges a closed center valve and uses it in an open center system, then it is building pressure all the time when it does not need to.

When running two sets of valves on an open center system, there are a few ways to do this.

One of the best ways is to run a separate pump for each valve set. This can be mounted separately or all part of one unit called a multi section pump, but each section is still basically a separate pump.

Another way is to use something called a rotary flow divider. This is basically a multi section pump that is driven by the hydraulic pressure, and geared together. Usually 1:1 for each section (I have not seen more than two but that doesn't mean they aren't out there). What this does it makes sure equal flow goes to both outputs without losing pressure.

Yet another way is a pressure priority valve. This acts like a flow divider crossed with a relief valve. It uses a series of spring valves to resist the pressure and basically lets one function steal all the pressure before the others get to use it.

If you just tee the output output to two open section valves, whichever one that is not being used steals all the flow and the one you are using never builds pressure and causes the motors or cylinders to move. So you could "cheat" the system and put an extra pressure relief in line with both valves, and plug the far end to basically turn it into a poor man's closed center system. These relief valves would be running all the time, putting extra load on the motor and heating up your fluid.

This sort of sounds like what your system is doing, based on what you have described.

A "power beyond" valve set up gets around all of this by running the valves in series. It is a special setup to let the next valve in line build pressure through the first one while it isn't working itself. This also means that any time the first one tries to do something it steals all the flow from the 2nd. But it is a very simple and economical way to build a system with multiple valve sets.

I want to say that the "standard" cadtrac plans call for the use of a rotary divider. The price of adding a rotary divider vs. using a multi section pump is very close, and the multi section pumps seem to be easier to find.

It sort of sounds to me like whoever built your system tried to cut some corners on the build, then didn't like the results and sold the unit.

Did you get the plans along with the unit? I don't know if he sells just the hydraulic plans separately or will offer to help diagnose a machine someone else has built and then kept the plans for, but how much have you spent on pumps so far? It might be worth buying the plans and going through the system.

https://cadplans.com/products/cadtrac-1500

Last edited by GLyford; 12/24/2020 05:59 AM.
Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: GLyford] #1902 12/24/2020 10:38 AM
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If you aren't a teacher, you ought to be one! The original plans are long gone. I am the third owner. The second owner would have included them if he had them. At least I think he would have. He included 2 brand new carburetors with it, so that leads me to think that he would have included the plans if he had them. When I called Honor Pumps, USA to get a rebuild kit for the pump, they told me that the pump I had was out of production for over 10 years. Then he did the calculations for what size pump that he thought I would need and where I needed to get it from. So now I have $200 for the plans and $300 for the pump, and $100 for the gauges and fittings for the tests. I need to start a spread sheet to keep track of all this.

Right now I get a reading of 700psi in the hose going from the divider to valve used to control the bucket. The out from that valve is t'd into the in hose that goes to the travel control valve, where I still get 700psi. In the out for this valve it reads zero pressure. I do not have indoor space, or even covered space to work on this and this morning we have 39 degrees and rain. I used to be a mailman, and that is a miserable combination. If it stops, then I'll go do the tests that GatorS laid out for me.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1903 12/24/2020 02:31 PM
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Can you bypass that second valve with a hose and see what the pressure goes to?


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Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: GatorS] #1905 12/24/2020 03:18 PM
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Bypassing the second valve: are you talkin about taking the output hose of the first valve and and just running it back to before the filter (where there is currently no pressure nor any need for it? I would then just cap off where that line went into the second valve.

I just got an email from Cadplans. My unit is not plumbed at all like it should be. I am missing the second flow divider and the foot operated fwd/rev valve. Maybe this thing has never run properly! I need a dry day to finish testing.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1907 12/24/2020 04:27 PM
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That was as I suspected, because what you had been describing up to now does not sound like what others who have built them have reported.

Good luck on getting it rearranged, and if not exactly as he designed, then at least closer to it in function.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1909 12/24/2020 05:24 PM
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Kinda was afraid it was not routed right! and the right parts never installed on it. ---- sounds like you are on track to getting it functional ----- dont have to be exactly like the plans,---just needs to work for you!


"A machine you build yourself is a vote for a different way of life. There are things you have to earn with your hands."
Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1910 12/24/2020 06:05 PM
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Yes run a hose from the outlet of the first valve to the tank/filter. Leave the gauge before the first valve. See if this changes the back pressure at neutral.

Before you go buying a bunch of stuff to match the plans I'd try to see if we can make it work as is. Might still need to buy some stuff but we need to verify what you have now before spending a ton of money that. Might not be needed.


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Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: GatorS] #1911 12/24/2020 09:09 PM
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That is the plan then. The other divider is over $200 bucks! So just to bring the machine into spec, would be another $400 to $500 bucks.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: GatorS] #1915 12/25/2020 07:27 PM
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I have only 1 picture of it and I can't post it here. I will go see if I can post it on our facebook page. If you go to the Cadtrac site, mine is the same color of yellow. Mine has rops and the rear is boxed with a small keg as the fuel tank sitting on top of the box.

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1917 12/26/2020 09:07 AM
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JIM Online Content
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Brought your pic over from FB.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


I know a lot about a lot of things BUT I still have a lot to learn.
Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: JIM] #1918 12/26/2020 09:20 AM
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Thanks!

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1920 12/26/2020 10:35 AM
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Kevin if you don't have shop space or indoors place to work,the fabric tents with metal poles(or car ports as they call them) are an economical alternative to a building in a pinch..that and a shotgun heater in wintertime

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: bunkclimber] #1921 12/26/2020 12:15 PM
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I have aa torpedo and a heater buddy that both work off or propane around her some where. When the Power went out Thursday evening and didn't come back on (two power poles were sheared off) I about drug the gas grill in off the porch to make heat with! I've been thinking about one of the aluminum carports that are bolted down to concrete anchors. The wind here is constant and one of those canvas tents would be caught up in the windmills over on the ridge in about 2 minutes!!

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1922 12/26/2020 05:50 PM
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KEVIN!!!!!---- That is a nice lookin loader!! Very handy size to have! --- Hey,--- wots that white stuff laying all over in your pic???? LOL!! We have the wind problem here too---course we live in the center of a 240 unit windfarm! lol!


"A machine you build yourself is a vote for a different way of life. There are things you have to earn with your hands."
Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1924 12/26/2020 06:21 PM
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bet he wishes it was working right to move that white stuff.


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Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: sonny] #1927 12/26/2020 09:03 PM
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Sonny and Jim, You can't see them, but along that ridge in the back ground there are plenty of huge windmills. There's a privacy fence on the Western side of my backyard that has been re-installed twice because of the wind. I need to get it up and running because more snow is on the way and come Spring I have some dirt I need to get moved. The joystick controls are what I need because I can't steer my old 1953 Cub any more. I have been putting a lot of thought into this machine.....if the engine was replaced with the motor from a golf cart and the bucket removed....this would make a great rough county wheel chair kind of rig.....for a handicapped person to go into the woods to hunt, or conquer trails with walking friends. It would be great to take to the beach to fish. But first, the hydraulics need fixed and tomorrow it's not supposed to snow and it should get into the 30's wooo hoooo heatwave! it is a great size for a home owner. Can't wait till it runs like it should!

Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1935 12/27/2020 08:11 AM
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I just thought of some thing. I don't have a Cadtrac but on my Mini Hoe the loader has a power beyond valve with float feature and the backhoe runs off that. just recently I have experienced a couple times where the backhoe would barely move and I could hear the relief on the pump lifting. I think the spool on loader valve sticks just enough that nothing moves BUT the flow through the valve is restricted. I've also noticed that the float feature quit working too. if I wiggle the valve handle the flow is restored.
Think I'm going to get a new valve. that one was surplus and I had to fabricate handles and every thing for it.
JUST thought I would throw that out there. might be a spool sticking some where after it gets all warmed up.


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Life is what you make of it. So, why not make a working machine to make it easier.
Re: Cadtrac over heating [Re: Kevin Werner] #1941 12/27/2020 09:38 PM
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I moved the hose from the out on the bucket valve so that it connects to the main return before the filter. Now I can steer without it stalling. But it Is one jumpy machine. to travel it takes reducing it to low idle speed in order to send power to the wheels with out getting bounced out of the machine and the same goes when lowering the bucket. It wants to drop like a rock only twice as fast! The out from the bucket valve, being moved from the in on the travel to just before the filter, has no kind of back pressure or flow restriction. That I think is what has led to the the bucket coming down so hard. When I go to drive it or turn it the pressure gauge on the left side jumps to 800, the gauge over before the filter did not move, stayed at zero. When driving, the pressure goes up to about 800psi and that's it. If I rev the engine I get more noise, but not more speed. So some where their is an 800psi relief valve. Steering will cause it to go higher, like to 1200psi and higher.

So I went and got the I.R. thermometer. The pump is flaming hot at 180+. The tank is about 80 and the divider is at 90. The travel speed of the machine went up with the new pump, but with the change in flow top speed is down. Interestingly, the Four wheel drive is still working.

So we have some improvements but not enough and still have way too much heat.

So now I'm going to go do the pressure testing in the order you gave me. Hopefully, tomorrow will be a good day to get those done.

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